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The USA has diplomatic relations with foreign countries based on trust. They also trade with those foreign countries - and that international trade is what make

The USA has diplomatic relations with foreign countries based on trust. They also trade with those foreign countries - and that international trade is what makes the economy and our lifestyles work. Targeting "all foreigners" destroys trust that foreigners have in the USA system for trade and diplomacy, lowering the impact of the state on both.

snowwrestler 13y ago
Comments like this make me think that maybe all the "acting naive about foreign affairs, diplomacy, and statecraft" is not actually acting. In the entire human history of diplomatic relations, nations have always attempted to spy on one another. Diplomatic relations are not based on trust, they are based on shared beliefs, interests, and goals.
- malandrew 13y ago
  Personally, I'd like to think that I live in a country that is above accepting such clandestine activities against its own citizens, allies and the citizens of its allies as the status quo. This is not such a naïve viewpoint as you may think since I would expect it to be the average of the viewpoints that many Americans held about its own government up until a year or so ago. To most Americans, a year ago the NSA didn't spy on US citizens, not did it eavesdrop on the communications of the leaders of its own allies. If you asked the typical American a year ago if s/he believes that their government spies on the leaders of our allies like Angela Merkel, you'd probably get an overwhelming negative response. If you continued your line of questioning and asked if it is acceptable to for the US government to do so, you'd probably get mixed responses. If you then went on to ask if it would be acceptable for the German government to spy on president Obama and other US politicians, you'd probably get a reaction where US citizens would consider that an act of war. The truth is that many US citizens hold very very very different opinions of what is acceptable than those in the intelligence community. I don't know about you, but the simple fact that such a wide disconnect exists between what citizens collectively think about how their government is operating and how it actually is operating is a fundamental failure of how our democracy currently functions. Leaders in a democracy should have a legal obligation to work to keep their constituents as best informed of how they are actually doing their jobs and attempts to hide or be less than honest about their activities should be viewed as attempts to subvert democracy. Anything otherwise, prevents I, Joe Q. Citizen, from honestly and effectively exercising my right to vote. If such policies mean non-American leaders will have a greater insight into how our politicians are acting in foreign policy negotiations than our leaders have about those non-American leaders are acting, that is the cost of being more ethical. Ideally that disadvantage is made up for in the long term by establishing a norm of greater ethics that those leader's citizens expect them to meet. If a citizen votes based on lies and misinformation, are they really participating in a democracy?
  - BWStearns 13y ago
    It's not that spying on Merkel (she seems lovely), is in fact a profitable affair, but there are so many other instances where it would indeed be profitable. Where do you draw the line? After the reset are the Russians off limits? After the Russo-Georgian Olympic war are the Georgians off limits? After South Sudanese independence are they off limits? Do you think any of them view us as off limits? Hell does even name-any-random-western-european-nation think we're off limits? No. I'm wholly in favor of the NSA not touching a single American email, but their job is to spy on relevant foreign targets. As long as they stick to that job (not saying they have so far, in fact I am rather uncomfortable with the earlier Snowden revelations), then yes I am OK with this. The citizen will always vote based on (US or not) (a/dis)information in the sense that every government has secrets. The key is maintaining a state where the secrets are not destructive to the underlying society that supports that given government. I am not entirely assured that the US has achieved that, however I do not think (betting man here) that we have fully failed that. Downvote if you must, but there is a not small tragedy in verbally damming the deeds of those whom we literally paid to do it in the first place (spying on Americans not included, more referring to the foreign targeting referred to in the parent article).
- baddox 13y ago
  > In the entire human history of diplomatic relations, nations have always attempted to spy on one another. Yes, and it's all bad. I don't see what's naive, or even controversial, about this.
  - ewoodrich 13y ago
    So the US shouldn't have spied on the Japanese consulate in the 40s to anticipate the forthcoming declaration of war? Or intercepted German transmissions to break the Enigma code?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - Filligree 13y ago
      Both countries you were - anticipated to be - or actually at war with. That's hardly the same thing as spying on allies.
  - snowwrestler 13y ago
    Sometimes nations lie to one another--even allies--in order to further their own self-interest. A diplomatic program that does not take that into account will find itself surprised in negative ways. Spying is one of several tools for managing that problem.
- gdy 13y ago
  “Gentlemen do not read each other’s mail” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Chamber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Chamber
wooter 13y ago
trust, but verify.

snowwrestler 13y ago

Comments like this make me think that maybe all the "acting naive about foreign affairs, diplomacy, and statecraft" is not actually acting. In the entire human history of diplomatic relations, nations have always attempted to spy on one another. Diplomatic relations are not based on trust, they are based on shared beliefs, interests, and goals.

malandrew 13y ago
Personally, I'd like to think that I live in a country that is above accepting such clandestine activities against its own citizens, allies and the citizens of its allies as the status quo. This is not such a naïve viewpoint as you may think since I would expect it to be the average of the viewpoints that many Americans held about its own government up until a year or so ago. To most Americans, a year ago the NSA didn't spy on US citizens, not did it eavesdrop on the communications of the leaders of its own allies. If you asked the typical American a year ago if s/he believes that their government spies on the leaders of our allies like Angela Merkel, you'd probably get an overwhelming negative response. If you continued your line of questioning and asked if it is acceptable to for the US government to do so, you'd probably get mixed responses. If you then went on to ask if it would be acceptable for the German government to spy on president Obama and other US politicians, you'd probably get a reaction where US citizens would consider that an act of war. The truth is that many US citizens hold very very very different opinions of what is acceptable than those in the intelligence community. I don't know about you, but the simple fact that such a wide disconnect exists between what citizens collectively think about how their government is operating and how it actually is operating is a fundamental failure of how our democracy currently functions. Leaders in a democracy should have a legal obligation to work to keep their constituents as best informed of how they are actually doing their jobs and attempts to hide or be less than honest about their activities should be viewed as attempts to subvert democracy. Anything otherwise, prevents I, Joe Q. Citizen, from honestly and effectively exercising my right to vote. If such policies mean non-American leaders will have a greater insight into how our politicians are acting in foreign policy negotiations than our leaders have about those non-American leaders are acting, that is the cost of being more ethical. Ideally that disadvantage is made up for in the long term by establishing a norm of greater ethics that those leader's citizens expect them to meet. If a citizen votes based on lies and misinformation, are they really participating in a democracy?
- BWStearns 13y ago
  It's not that spying on Merkel (she seems lovely), is in fact a profitable affair, but there are so many other instances where it would indeed be profitable. Where do you draw the line? After the reset are the Russians off limits? After the Russo-Georgian Olympic war are the Georgians off limits? After South Sudanese independence are they off limits? Do you think any of them view us as off limits? Hell does even name-any-random-western-european-nation think we're off limits? No. I'm wholly in favor of the NSA not touching a single American email, but their job is to spy on relevant foreign targets. As long as they stick to that job (not saying they have so far, in fact I am rather uncomfortable with the earlier Snowden revelations), then yes I am OK with this. The citizen will always vote based on (US or not) (a/dis)information in the sense that every government has secrets. The key is maintaining a state where the secrets are not destructive to the underlying society that supports that given government. I am not entirely assured that the US has achieved that, however I do not think (betting man here) that we have fully failed that. Downvote if you must, but there is a not small tragedy in verbally damming the deeds of those whom we literally paid to do it in the first place (spying on Americans not included, more referring to the foreign targeting referred to in the parent article).
baddox 13y ago
> In the entire human history of diplomatic relations, nations have always attempted to spy on one another. Yes, and it's all bad. I don't see what's naive, or even controversial, about this.
- ewoodrich 13y ago
  So the US shouldn't have spied on the Japanese consulate in the 40s to anticipate the forthcoming declaration of war? Or intercepted German transmissions to break the Enigma code?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Filligree 13y ago
    Both countries you were - anticipated to be - or actually at war with. That's hardly the same thing as spying on allies.
- snowwrestler 13y ago
  Sometimes nations lie to one another--even allies--in order to further their own self-interest. A diplomatic program that does not take that into account will find itself surprised in negative ways. Spying is one of several tools for managing that problem.
gdy 13y ago
“Gentlemen do not read each other’s mail” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Chamber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Chamber

wooter 13y ago

trust, but verify.