9 ms·

Germans abandon hope of US 'no-spy' treaty

117 points by f_salmon 13y ago

fit2rule 13y ago
How ironic will it be if the next generation of German kids has to rise up to fight the totalitarian might of the USA? I see it happening, already .. truly a staggering circumstance that we are here now in the 21st Century, and not even Germany can stand up to the tyrants.
- gadders 13y ago
  The US are tyrants? Seriously?
  - phaer 13y ago
    In the context of international politics they are a clear match for most definitions of tyranny. Killing civilians based on behavioral profiles (look up "signature strikes drones") without any declaration of war against the countries in question (Pakistan, Yemen) is just one example. The relations between the US and most south-american countries is another one.
    - gadders 13y ago
      I think compared to the Soviet Union they are positively benevolent.
      - sp332 13y ago
        I don't think we should make the Soviet government the standard.
        gadders 13y ago
        No-one is making it the standard, but it is relevant seeing that NATO and the US were the only things that guaranteed West Germany's safety from Soviet Russia.
        phaer 13y ago
        ...that might have been an argument almost 25 years ago, but the NATO continues to exist while the Soviet Union is long gone, and its questionable if that's for the benefit of the worlds population.
    - ihsw 13y ago
      Your post implies that the US operates in Pakistan and Yemen without their consent -- there is definitely consent. Pakistan and Yemen want the US to bomb their country, for a variety of reasons that are as silly and contradictory as one can imagine.
      - scarmig 13y ago
        Silly and contradictory enough that it's probably more confusing than not to imagine a Pakistan or Yemen with a united will. The weak and fractured governments of Pakistan and Yemen want the US to bomb there. Yemen's being so weak it barely deserves the name.
        res0nat0r 13y ago
        The recognized leaders of these countries are the ones who are allowing this. Read Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill for more.
    - josefresco 13y ago
      Official declaration of war on a state entity is almost quaint given how modern conflicts are now waged. If only it were as easy as declaring war on country "X" with complete disregard for native and non-native controlling factions. What happens when your old rules of warfare aren't followed by your new enemy? Do you stand by those rules or adapt to the new reality? Targeted drone strikes based on human and data intelligence is light years beyond declaring official war and shelling/bombing an entire region to the ground with no regard to what side the inhabitants may be on.
      - eliasmacpherson 13y ago
        Not if your intelligence is worthless. If your intelligence is worthless, it's almost indiscernible. You're creating a false dichotomy between "targeted" drone strikes and shelling and bombing an entire region. By the way, each perpetrator of shelling and bombing entire regions has historically made similar claims of "targeting/precision".
        josefresco 13y ago
        Your points are right on, and I think as technology gets better, civilian deaths do decrease. However what happens is we start to cringe at the effectiveness of a cruise missile or drone attack forgetting that the alternative is bloodier, more dangerous and arguably a lot less effective. How do we balance our tolerance for casualties with our tolerance of more and more effective weapons? My point was not to say that drone strikes were wrong or right, only that the technology shouldn't be on trial, the intelligence, effectiveness and purpose should be. I'm sure when airplanes and modern firearms took over the battlefield many thought they were "unfair" and dehumanized the process or war. And I don't doubt that in the future we'll be equally scared of newer more effective weapons.
        eliasmacpherson 13y ago
        It's not a war. No more than the war on drugs is a war. I don't agree that as technology gets better that the number of civilian deaths decrease. I would point to the atom bomb and chemical warfare. As drone technology gets cheaper, I don't see why civilian deaths would decrease. This is not an argument for ludditism. You're presenting regional carpet bombing as the only alternative. This is not the case. There are alternatives other than drone strikes, and regional bombing that you seem to be ignoring. Using your terms, how many countries is the US at "war" with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#2010.E2.80.93present https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mili... These are not wars, this is unilateral, self appointed world policing. Unfortunately, the drone technology is not sufficient to guarantee accuracy. You can tell this because of how civilian deaths have been "redefined" by the US administration and the US military. Both refuse to publish their statistics. Historically, US intelligence has been anything but accurate, maybe the refusal to publish is another example of this. I question the effectiveness of attacking funerals and weddings half way across the world, under the guise of preventing terrorism. Particularly with spectacular failures recently making the news. The technology is not on trial, the US's reputation is. The technology has already been shown to be bunkum - the US's defence is that it's cheap bunkum. This isn't progress on any front. The US does not need cheap drone strikes in these countries, nor does it need to bomb the regions. It's not the weapons people are scared of, it's who is using them. [0] http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/ http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/ [1] http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/25/confessions-of-an-american-drone-warrior/ http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/25/confessions-of-an-a... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-us-military http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-...
  - fit2rule 13y ago
    Yes. This fact is becoming increasingly more clear to the rest of the world.
- bananacurve 13y ago
  That is a lovely fantasy but I'd be surprised if they even cut back on US military bases.
  - aluhut 13y ago
    They won't. The cuts on the German Army bases is already considered a mistake. Forcing (no idea how) the US to close down bases would only hurt the local and regional politicians. I don't belive it at all.
    - marktangotango 13y ago
      Why was it a mistake? Just curious. When I was stationed over there in 98-00, we pumped A LOT of money into the local economies, I personally bought a lot of beer! I love Germany, such a beautiful country, awesome people.
      - aluhut 13y ago
        I'm sorry, I guess there was a misunderstanding based on my bad choice of words. I ment the Bundeswehr bases. Because of that decission many german soldiers are forced to move or travel a lot. Currently the new Defence Minister tries a more US approach on military bases by intergrating some kind of infrastructure within the bases. And yes, the US (as well as german) bases pump really much money into local economies. And local economies are suffering from closed down bases a lot.
- mortyseinfeld 13y ago
  We saw what happened when Germany "rose up" in the middle of the last century. I guess Germans though the jews were tyrants back then.
  - smackay 13y ago
    you forgot the homosexual tyrants, the gypsy tyrants, the slav tyrants and not forgetting the tyrants with disabilities. The takeover of the German state by the National Socialist party was little more than a coup by a gang of thugs, psycopaths and criminals. The persecution of Jews and other minorities was just a convenient scapegoat to drag the majority of the population along. The horrible crimes perpretated during this period cannot in anyway be ascribed as a (popular) uprising.
    - Dewie 13y ago
      The Jews etc. were the scapegoats of Germany, and the party and their leader rose to power because Germany was the scapegoat of WW1 (justly or not). I don't imagine that Hitler and his party would actually have gotten such a foothold if it wasn't for the fact that the German people were resentful for being under everyone's heel, and that Hitler's leadership brought Germany out of a slump in the 30's. No? My knowledge of history is rusty.
      - brazzy 13y ago
        I believe the main reason for the failure of the Weimar Republic was that most people actually didn't want a democracy. Right-leaning people saw it as a decadent and weak form of government and wanted the monarchy back, and left-leaning ones were split between a dozen different brands of communism or anarchism. And of course it didn't help that previous military leaders had been worthless cowards who continued a losing war to a point where they could not longer sue for peace, then leave it to the newly formed democratic government to accept the onerous conditions imposed by the opponents and end up getting blamed for something they had neither caused not any choice in.
      - gdy 13y ago
Nanzikambe 13y ago
Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful? After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to most treaties/laws in the past.
- harryf 13y ago
  > Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful? I would be very meaningful in a symbolic sense. Germany and most of Western Europe are used to seeing themselves as close allies of the US since WW2. With close allies you expect to be able to reach an acceptable level of trust on topics like spying, even though you know both sides are still going to do it at some level. By not being able to sign this agreement the message for Germans / US relations is "we trust you just like we trust the Chinese". That will likely lead to a weakening of past alliances...
  - ulfw 13y ago
    Yea but I guess it's at least more honest this way ;)
    - f_salmon 13y ago
      Let's say "honest in the eyes of the citizen/voter", b/c no politician would seriously consider putting any real trust in any such agreement.
  - igl 13y ago
    Germany is not a sovereign country, there is no peace contract. "Seeing themselves as close allies" is kinda lol looking from the fact that we are occupied since 60 years.
    - f_salmon 13y ago
      The fact that Germany still allows the presence and construction of extremely expensive and big NSA surveillance centers (tapping into German infrastructure) such as the "Dagger complex" [0] certainly says a lot with regards to "sovereignty". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex
bananacurve 13y ago
The article directly contradicts itself. >A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”
- mikeash 13y ago
  I interpret this as meaning that they hope to get something in the treaty but not all of the anti-spying measures they wanted.
- enkephalin 13y ago
  that is the official statement. the rest of the statements were made by an anonymous source, with inside information.
marcuspovey 13y ago
Possibly, this may actually be a good thing, at least as far as the internet is concerned. When governments realise that they can't get any "special exemptions" put in for them, the only real option left open is to throw their weight behind measures to secure the internet for everybody.
- aluhut 13y ago
  Problem here is: the german intelligence agencies rely on the US. So we may see some political show on the surface but beneath that, nothing will happen. If we (the Germans) are unlucky, it may even end up in a show where the politicians tell us that we need more secret agency involvement to "protect us from the US" which of course will only end up as another excuse to collect even more data. Same thing they tried to sell us with the "Schlandnet" where T-Online would take over the control within Germany. There was a interesting show on the 30C3 on this.
sentenza 13y ago
Here is an important point for the non-Germans, so that you can understand why this was even asked for: Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions) are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among equals. Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen. They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.
- Argorak 13y ago
  Another piece of info that is missing: there were elections in germany last autumn. Going into negotiations for a "no-spy" agreement also meant that the administration could say that they are doing something. Even though the negotiations have now turned out worthless (kind of predictable...), the elections are over now and they are in safe waters.
mathattack 13y ago
What's the point of a No Spy treaty if people will break it anyway? Being a cynic, if you're going to spy anyway, isn't it better to have a situation where everyone knows that everyone else is spying, and have fake outrage? (I'm assuming that the treaty won't stop anything)
- wahsd 13y ago
  Well, if you say "no, really, ...now...this time stop lying and cheating and stalking. Ok, we're good not, right." then it will mean something.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    I will only believe it if they preface it with "honestly" or "frankly". :-) Where is Orwell when we need him?
- ImprovedSilence 13y ago
  What makes you think this current outrage isn't the "fake outrage" you are looking for?
robrenaud 13y ago
US gives FU to Germany with the lack of a no-spy treaty. Germany should respond by giving asylum to Snowden.
- rjzzleep 13y ago
  germany is hardly a sovereign country anymore. they couldn't do so even if they wanted to. disclaimer: i grew up there
  - ckoepp 13y ago
    Of course you have sources for this statement, right? By the way - this is exactly the argumentation neo-Nazi parties parties proclaim all the time [1]. You must be in lack of any information about what is going on in European and German politics to state stuff like this... [1] http://npd-fraktion-sachsen.de/index.php?s=111&aid=6373 http://npd-fraktion-sachsen.de/index.php?s=111&aid=6373
    - daniel-cussen 13y ago
      > By the way - this is exactly the argumentation neo-Nazi parties parties proclaim all the time [1]. You must be in lack of any information about what is going on in European and German politics to state stuff like this... It doesn't matter who says it or why. Germany, for better or worse, has little or no sovereignty. I don't know of any historical countries with 50,000 foreign soldiers in them that were not vassals, let alone sovereigns.
      - brazzy 13y ago
        You don't know a lot then...
  - brazzy 13y ago
    That's just ideological right-wing bullshit. Presumably you're referring to the EU, but while there are efforts to harmonize EU asylum laws, it would be hard to find a more incorrect statement about them than that they would not allow a country to grant asylum to someone if it wants to. Besides, no EU regulation is ever going to get passed that the German government doesn't want to.
sschueller 13y ago
Another big problem is German sovereignty. Many laws need fixing as they still give the US enormous control over what they can do in Germany.
- DangerousPie 13y ago
  Do you have some examples for this?
  - jeena 13y ago
    Not exactly paragraphs but I have a link to SVG on Wikimedia which explains it quite good I think: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_Germany.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_...
    - brazzy 13y ago
      Explains or proves absolutely nothing.
      - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
        The important things are not easily proven. The important people of the world cover up, what they do and what power they have. Because, if they would do it openly, people would find out, that democracy is just a mock-up.
        jeena 13y ago
        The weird thing is, had I read a comment like this two years ago I would just dismiss it as conspiracy theorist bullshit. Today I can't do that that easy anymore :-/
        PythonicAlpha 13y ago
        I too would have dismissed many things, that I know today as conspiracy bullshit. The point is, that we were educated (or should I say brainwashed) for centuries in a special way. But today I see, that it was a cover-up. I too was convinced, that the west is so much better than say China or Russia ... Today I still don't like China and Russia, but things have changed ....
socrates1998 13y ago
The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of this. The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's priviledges. Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back consequences. I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off. It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them. Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on. All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and respect sovereignty.
- SyneRyder 13y ago
  "I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on." This is already happening. The Washington Post had a story in November about how Berlin has become a new haven for leakers & privacy activists. Of course, it probably now makes Berlin one of the most heavily spied-on cities in the world. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leakers-privacy-activists-find-new-home-in-berlin/2013/11/26/272dc7fc-4e1d-11e3-97f6-ed8e3053083b_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leakers-privacy-a...
- grecy 13y ago
  I genuinely hope a whole bunch of countries get together and stop using the USD altogether. Make the Euro the standard for Gold and Oil, etc, stop trading on the US-based stock markets, etc. etc. America's economy is it's greatest vulnerability, and other countries could do great damage to it if they banded together and gave them the finger back.
  - drjesusphd 13y ago
    There's a school of thought that the "Axis of Evil", invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the ongoing antagonization of Iran and Venezuela are all demonstrations to the world at large of the extent to which the US would respond to such a move.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
I grew up in the US often hearing stories of Israeli intel agencies spying on the US. 'Everyone spies on everyone, even allies, it's no big deal,' was what everyone always said.
- quantumpotato_ 13y ago
  Did you grow up with spies?
  - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
    How would I have known!
fafner 13y ago
Besides the valid points already raised in the discussion it also shows that the US isn't considering the German intelligence service as a threat. Either because they expect German politicians not having the balls to order it to spy on the US government or because they consider it too incompetent to do so or because they have it in their pockets.
captainmuon 13y ago
The German government was hardly really negotiating a no-spy treaty. They benefit too much from the exchange with the US (at least that's what they think). Remember, the NSA is not supposed to spy on US citizens, just as the German BND is not supposed to spy on Germans. So they spy on each other's citizens and exchange the information. So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example, which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth. So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there is a lot that you can't see from outside. Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.
- PythonicAlpha 13y ago
  All is right, except the last paragraph. That is just theoretical stuff. Yes, theoretical there might be something like "treason" in some old law book .... But, I don't remember one "treason" prosecution in my life time in Germany, with exception maybe to the DDR-Spy with Willi Brand as chancellor ... wow is this long ago! Also, I think there should be filed charges against many people in Germanys current government because they don't stop the US to spy on German people and companies openly. But nothing happens. Why, because in Germany there is no independent judiciary at all. There will be no prosecution without federal prosecutor, but all of them have to obey the government -- so no member of government or top politician will ever be prosecuted in Germany, whatever evil they do against the country or the people. Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up.
  - junto 13y ago
    > Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up. Replace Germans with "Everyone".
PythonicAlpha 13y ago
This was only a cover-up by the Merkel administration to win the election in last autumn. Of course, some people that where in the delegation wanted to get some little success to bring home ... but the US showed that they are the rulers and the US is the big boss. I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German: "Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.
- king_phil 13y ago
  Some people realized that years ago, others still don't. It is a shame but Merkel is very popular, especially with older people that don't understand the implications of the NSA scandal.
  - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
    Yes, it is a shame. It is also a shame, that even younger people and even tech people have voted for Merkel. I guess, egoistic behavior and stupidity is just very widespread.
theandrewbailey 13y ago
After reading this, I clicked on the "6 quotes on Germany from Americans" gallery. MLK Jr said "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." Kinda hits the NSA nail on the head.

117 points by f_salmon 13y ago

How ironic will it be if the next generation of German kids has to rise up to fight the totalitarian might of the USA? I see it happening, already .. truly a staggering circumstance that we are here now in the 21st Century, and not even Germany can stand up to the tyrants.

gadders 13y ago
The US are tyrants? Seriously?
- phaer 13y ago
  In the context of international politics they are a clear match for most definitions of tyranny. Killing civilians based on behavioral profiles (look up "signature strikes drones") without any declaration of war against the countries in question (Pakistan, Yemen) is just one example. The relations between the US and most south-american countries is another one.
  - gadders 13y ago
    I think compared to the Soviet Union they are positively benevolent.
    - sp332 13y ago
      I don't think we should make the Soviet government the standard.
      - gadders 13y ago
        No-one is making it the standard, but it is relevant seeing that NATO and the US were the only things that guaranteed West Germany's safety from Soviet Russia.
        phaer 13y ago
        ...that might have been an argument almost 25 years ago, but the NATO continues to exist while the Soviet Union is long gone, and its questionable if that's for the benefit of the worlds population.
  - ihsw 13y ago
    Your post implies that the US operates in Pakistan and Yemen without their consent -- there is definitely consent. Pakistan and Yemen want the US to bomb their country, for a variety of reasons that are as silly and contradictory as one can imagine.
    - scarmig 13y ago
      Silly and contradictory enough that it's probably more confusing than not to imagine a Pakistan or Yemen with a united will. The weak and fractured governments of Pakistan and Yemen want the US to bomb there. Yemen's being so weak it barely deserves the name.
      - res0nat0r 13y ago
        The recognized leaders of these countries are the ones who are allowing this. Read Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill for more.
  - josefresco 13y ago
    Official declaration of war on a state entity is almost quaint given how modern conflicts are now waged. If only it were as easy as declaring war on country "X" with complete disregard for native and non-native controlling factions. What happens when your old rules of warfare aren't followed by your new enemy? Do you stand by those rules or adapt to the new reality? Targeted drone strikes based on human and data intelligence is light years beyond declaring official war and shelling/bombing an entire region to the ground with no regard to what side the inhabitants may be on.
    - eliasmacpherson 13y ago
      Not if your intelligence is worthless. If your intelligence is worthless, it's almost indiscernible. You're creating a false dichotomy between "targeted" drone strikes and shelling and bombing an entire region. By the way, each perpetrator of shelling and bombing entire regions has historically made similar claims of "targeting/precision".
      - josefresco 13y ago
        Your points are right on, and I think as technology gets better, civilian deaths do decrease. However what happens is we start to cringe at the effectiveness of a cruise missile or drone attack forgetting that the alternative is bloodier, more dangerous and arguably a lot less effective. How do we balance our tolerance for casualties with our tolerance of more and more effective weapons? My point was not to say that drone strikes were wrong or right, only that the technology shouldn't be on trial, the intelligence, effectiveness and purpose should be. I'm sure when airplanes and modern firearms took over the battlefield many thought they were "unfair" and dehumanized the process or war. And I don't doubt that in the future we'll be equally scared of newer more effective weapons.
        eliasmacpherson 13y ago
        It's not a war. No more than the war on drugs is a war. I don't agree that as technology gets better that the number of civilian deaths decrease. I would point to the atom bomb and chemical warfare. As drone technology gets cheaper, I don't see why civilian deaths would decrease. This is not an argument for ludditism. You're presenting regional carpet bombing as the only alternative. This is not the case. There are alternatives other than drone strikes, and regional bombing that you seem to be ignoring. Using your terms, how many countries is the US at "war" with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#2010.E2.80.93present https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_mili... These are not wars, this is unilateral, self appointed world policing. Unfortunately, the drone technology is not sufficient to guarantee accuracy. You can tell this because of how civilian deaths have been "redefined" by the US administration and the US military. Both refuse to publish their statistics. Historically, US intelligence has been anything but accurate, maybe the refusal to publish is another example of this. I question the effectiveness of attacking funerals and weddings half way across the world, under the guise of preventing terrorism. Particularly with spectacular failures recently making the news. The technology is not on trial, the US's reputation is. The technology has already been shown to be bunkum - the US's defence is that it's cheap bunkum. This isn't progress on any front. The US does not need cheap drone strikes in these countries, nor does it need to bomb the regions. It's not the weapons people are scared of, it's who is using them. [0] http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/ http://www.livingunderdrones.org/numbers/ [1] http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/25/confessions-of-an-american-drone-warrior/ http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2013/10/25/confessions-of-an-a... [2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-us-military http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/29/drones-...
- fit2rule 13y ago
  Yes. This fact is becoming increasingly more clear to the rest of the world.
bananacurve 13y ago
That is a lovely fantasy but I'd be surprised if they even cut back on US military bases.
- aluhut 13y ago
  They won't. The cuts on the German Army bases is already considered a mistake. Forcing (no idea how) the US to close down bases would only hurt the local and regional politicians. I don't belive it at all.
  - marktangotango 13y ago
    Why was it a mistake? Just curious. When I was stationed over there in 98-00, we pumped A LOT of money into the local economies, I personally bought a lot of beer! I love Germany, such a beautiful country, awesome people.
    - aluhut 13y ago
      I'm sorry, I guess there was a misunderstanding based on my bad choice of words. I ment the Bundeswehr bases. Because of that decission many german soldiers are forced to move or travel a lot. Currently the new Defence Minister tries a more US approach on military bases by intergrating some kind of infrastructure within the bases. And yes, the US (as well as german) bases pump really much money into local economies. And local economies are suffering from closed down bases a lot.
mortyseinfeld 13y ago
We saw what happened when Germany "rose up" in the middle of the last century. I guess Germans though the jews were tyrants back then.
- smackay 13y ago
  you forgot the homosexual tyrants, the gypsy tyrants, the slav tyrants and not forgetting the tyrants with disabilities. The takeover of the German state by the National Socialist party was little more than a coup by a gang of thugs, psycopaths and criminals. The persecution of Jews and other minorities was just a convenient scapegoat to drag the majority of the population along. The horrible crimes perpretated during this period cannot in anyway be ascribed as a (popular) uprising.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    The Jews etc. were the scapegoats of Germany, and the party and their leader rose to power because Germany was the scapegoat of WW1 (justly or not). I don't imagine that Hitler and his party would actually have gotten such a foothold if it wasn't for the fact that the German people were resentful for being under everyone's heel, and that Hitler's leadership brought Germany out of a slump in the 30's. No? My knowledge of history is rusty.
    - brazzy 13y ago
      I believe the main reason for the failure of the Weimar Republic was that most people actually didn't want a democracy. Right-leaning people saw it as a decadent and weak form of government and wanted the monarchy back, and left-leaning ones were split between a dozen different brands of communism or anarchism. And of course it didn't help that previous military leaders had been worthless cowards who continued a losing war to a point where they could not longer sue for peace, then leave it to the newly formed democratic government to accept the onerous conditions imposed by the opponents and end up getting blamed for something they had neither caused not any choice in.
    - gdy 13y ago

Nanzikambe 13y ago

Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful? After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to most treaties/laws in the past.

harryf 13y ago
> Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful? I would be very meaningful in a symbolic sense. Germany and most of Western Europe are used to seeing themselves as close allies of the US since WW2. With close allies you expect to be able to reach an acceptable level of trust on topics like spying, even though you know both sides are still going to do it at some level. By not being able to sign this agreement the message for Germans / US relations is "we trust you just like we trust the Chinese". That will likely lead to a weakening of past alliances...
- ulfw 13y ago
  Yea but I guess it's at least more honest this way ;)
  - f_salmon 13y ago
    Let's say "honest in the eyes of the citizen/voter", b/c no politician would seriously consider putting any real trust in any such agreement.
- igl 13y ago
  Germany is not a sovereign country, there is no peace contract. "Seeing themselves as close allies" is kinda lol looking from the fact that we are occupied since 60 years.
  - f_salmon 13y ago
    The fact that Germany still allows the presence and construction of extremely expensive and big NSA surveillance centers (tapping into German infrastructure) such as the "Dagger complex" [0] certainly says a lot with regards to "sovereignty". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_Complex

bananacurve 13y ago

The article directly contradicts itself. >A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”

mikeash 13y ago
I interpret this as meaning that they hope to get something in the treaty but not all of the anti-spying measures they wanted.
enkephalin 13y ago
that is the official statement. the rest of the statements were made by an anonymous source, with inside information.

marcuspovey 13y ago

Possibly, this may actually be a good thing, at least as far as the internet is concerned. When governments realise that they can't get any "special exemptions" put in for them, the only real option left open is to throw their weight behind measures to secure the internet for everybody.

aluhut 13y ago
Problem here is: the german intelligence agencies rely on the US. So we may see some political show on the surface but beneath that, nothing will happen. If we (the Germans) are unlucky, it may even end up in a show where the politicians tell us that we need more secret agency involvement to "protect us from the US" which of course will only end up as another excuse to collect even more data. Same thing they tried to sell us with the "Schlandnet" where T-Online would take over the control within Germany. There was a interesting show on the 30C3 on this.

sentenza 13y ago

Here is an important point for the non-Germans, so that you can understand why this was even asked for: Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions) are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among equals. Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen. They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.

Argorak 13y ago
Another piece of info that is missing: there were elections in germany last autumn. Going into negotiations for a "no-spy" agreement also meant that the administration could say that they are doing something. Even though the negotiations have now turned out worthless (kind of predictable...), the elections are over now and they are in safe waters.

mathattack 13y ago

What's the point of a No Spy treaty if people will break it anyway? Being a cynic, if you're going to spy anyway, isn't it better to have a situation where everyone knows that everyone else is spying, and have fake outrage? (I'm assuming that the treaty won't stop anything)

wahsd 13y ago
Well, if you say "no, really, ...now...this time stop lying and cheating and stalking. Ok, we're good not, right." then it will mean something.
- mathattack 13y ago
  I will only believe it if they preface it with "honestly" or "frankly". :-) Where is Orwell when we need him?
ImprovedSilence 13y ago
What makes you think this current outrage isn't the "fake outrage" you are looking for?

robrenaud 13y ago

US gives FU to Germany with the lack of a no-spy treaty. Germany should respond by giving asylum to Snowden.

rjzzleep 13y ago
germany is hardly a sovereign country anymore. they couldn't do so even if they wanted to. disclaimer: i grew up there
- ckoepp 13y ago
  Of course you have sources for this statement, right? By the way - this is exactly the argumentation neo-Nazi parties parties proclaim all the time [1]. You must be in lack of any information about what is going on in European and German politics to state stuff like this... [1] http://npd-fraktion-sachsen.de/index.php?s=111&aid=6373 http://npd-fraktion-sachsen.de/index.php?s=111&aid=6373
  - daniel-cussen 13y ago
    > By the way - this is exactly the argumentation neo-Nazi parties parties proclaim all the time [1]. You must be in lack of any information about what is going on in European and German politics to state stuff like this... It doesn't matter who says it or why. Germany, for better or worse, has little or no sovereignty. I don't know of any historical countries with 50,000 foreign soldiers in them that were not vassals, let alone sovereigns.
    - brazzy 13y ago
      You don't know a lot then...
- brazzy 13y ago
  That's just ideological right-wing bullshit. Presumably you're referring to the EU, but while there are efforts to harmonize EU asylum laws, it would be hard to find a more incorrect statement about them than that they would not allow a country to grant asylum to someone if it wants to. Besides, no EU regulation is ever going to get passed that the German government doesn't want to.

sschueller 13y ago

Another big problem is German sovereignty. Many laws need fixing as they still give the US enormous control over what they can do in Germany.

DangerousPie 13y ago
Do you have some examples for this?
- jeena 13y ago
  Not exactly paragraphs but I have a link to SVG on Wikimedia which explains it quite good I think: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_Germany.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_...
  - brazzy 13y ago
    Explains or proves absolutely nothing.
    - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
      The important things are not easily proven. The important people of the world cover up, what they do and what power they have. Because, if they would do it openly, people would find out, that democracy is just a mock-up.
      - jeena 13y ago
        The weird thing is, had I read a comment like this two years ago I would just dismiss it as conspiracy theorist bullshit. Today I can't do that that easy anymore :-/
        PythonicAlpha 13y ago
        I too would have dismissed many things, that I know today as conspiracy bullshit. The point is, that we were educated (or should I say brainwashed) for centuries in a special way. But today I see, that it was a cover-up. I too was convinced, that the west is so much better than say China or Russia ... Today I still don't like China and Russia, but things have changed ....

socrates1998 13y ago

The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of this. The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's priviledges. Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back consequences. I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off. It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them. Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on. All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and respect sovereignty.

SyneRyder 13y ago
"I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on." This is already happening. The Washington Post had a story in November about how Berlin has become a new haven for leakers & privacy activists. Of course, it probably now makes Berlin one of the most heavily spied-on cities in the world. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leakers-privacy-activists-find-new-home-in-berlin/2013/11/26/272dc7fc-4e1d-11e3-97f6-ed8e3053083b_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leakers-privacy-a...
grecy 13y ago
I genuinely hope a whole bunch of countries get together and stop using the USD altogether. Make the Euro the standard for Gold and Oil, etc, stop trading on the US-based stock markets, etc. etc. America's economy is it's greatest vulnerability, and other countries could do great damage to it if they banded together and gave them the finger back.
- drjesusphd 13y ago
  There's a school of thought that the "Axis of Evil", invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the ongoing antagonization of Iran and Venezuela are all demonstrations to the world at large of the extent to which the US would respond to such a move.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

I grew up in the US often hearing stories of Israeli intel agencies spying on the US. 'Everyone spies on everyone, even allies, it's no big deal,' was what everyone always said.

quantumpotato_ 13y ago
Did you grow up with spies?
- alexeisadeski3 13y ago
  How would I have known!

fafner 13y ago

Besides the valid points already raised in the discussion it also shows that the US isn't considering the German intelligence service as a threat. Either because they expect German politicians not having the balls to order it to spy on the US government or because they consider it too incompetent to do so or because they have it in their pockets.

captainmuon 13y ago

The German government was hardly really negotiating a no-spy treaty. They benefit too much from the exchange with the US (at least that's what they think). Remember, the NSA is not supposed to spy on US citizens, just as the German BND is not supposed to spy on Germans. So they spy on each other's citizens and exchange the information. So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example, which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth. So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there is a lot that you can't see from outside. Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.

PythonicAlpha 13y ago
All is right, except the last paragraph. That is just theoretical stuff. Yes, theoretical there might be something like "treason" in some old law book .... But, I don't remember one "treason" prosecution in my life time in Germany, with exception maybe to the DDR-Spy with Willi Brand as chancellor ... wow is this long ago! Also, I think there should be filed charges against many people in Germanys current government because they don't stop the US to spy on German people and companies openly. But nothing happens. Why, because in Germany there is no independent judiciary at all. There will be no prosecution without federal prosecutor, but all of them have to obey the government -- so no member of government or top politician will ever be prosecuted in Germany, whatever evil they do against the country or the people. Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up.
- junto 13y ago
  > Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up. Replace Germans with "Everyone".

PythonicAlpha 13y ago

This was only a cover-up by the Merkel administration to win the election in last autumn. Of course, some people that where in the delegation wanted to get some little success to bring home ... but the US showed that they are the rulers and the US is the big boss. I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German: "Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.

king_phil 13y ago
Some people realized that years ago, others still don't. It is a shame but Merkel is very popular, especially with older people that don't understand the implications of the NSA scandal.
- PythonicAlpha 13y ago
  Yes, it is a shame. It is also a shame, that even younger people and even tech people have voted for Merkel. I guess, egoistic behavior and stupidity is just very widespread.

theandrewbailey 13y ago

After reading this, I clicked on the "6 quotes on Germany from Americans" gallery. MLK Jr said "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." Kinda hits the NSA nail on the head.