7 ms·

The cynic in me shudders at the possibility of Google adding even more real-world data like temperature preference and lifestyle factors to their massive data p

by jmduke 13y ago

The cynic in me shudders at the possibility of Google adding even more real-world data like temperature preference and lifestyle factors to their massive data portfolio. The idealist in me is incredibly excited at the possibility of Nest's fundamental strengths being bolstered by Google's coffers.

Karunamon 13y ago
Am I the only one that doesn't get chills up their spine whenever Google breaks into some new market? I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference (of all things...) and very great possible gains. The more intimately a service knows you, the more personalized and relevant data it can bring. And another thing, I am really sick and tired of tempering or being told to temper my enthusiasm for some new technology or some novel use of existing technology just because it might be misused. Just about every technology that's wide-reaching enough has abuse potential. That is not an excuse for ludditism! Deal with the abuse instead of hamstringing the tech.
- tilsammans 13y ago
  > I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference Imagine that the season is changing where you live. You could be expected to start shopping for warm clothes. Google can easily show you ads for pricier warm clothes, and move organic results to page 2. Or Google knows you boiler broke down. And shows ads of pricier service companies instead of the lower-priced local fixer who is now on page 4. The immediate harm is that pricier alternatives are pushed to you, and you don't even know that cheaper alternatives exist, because Google controls your entire world.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    First, somehow I don't think Google is going to do this. This is a company that keeps a multimillion dollar liability on their front page (the "I'm feeling lucky" button) out of culture and deference to tradition. Secondly, what you suggest really isn't even misuse.
- chrisrhoden 13y ago
  What about the ability to know when someone is in your home and when someone is not? If Google records that data (say, to be able to provide you with a handy chart of your energy use and some ways to improve it), the potential I am more worried about is the fact that the data exists makes it possible to subpoena.
  - Karunamon 13y ago
    The "bad guys" (I assume we're talking about government types) can park outside your house or just lean on the electric/gas company for that info already. Or considering how some people broadcast their location with Twitter/Foursquare/Facebook/Etc, just watch that.
    - chrisrhoden 13y ago
      Parking outside your house requires that they have enough interest in you to dedicate resources to the task. The electric/gas meter in your house is not literally designed to detect when there is a human home and when there is not.
      - Karunamon 13y ago
        Nest really isn't great for that either, aside from what I'd call an adaptive timer based on how you adjust it. But if you have access to someone's live power usage, you probably have a good idea of their schedule. On top of that, your phone makes a much better tracker than your thermostat.
        mbrameld 13y ago
        > Nest really isn't great for that either, aside from what I'd call an adaptive timer based on how you adjust it. What about the auto-away feature?
        Karunamon 13y ago
        Depends entirely on where it's located in your home. I've tried and sold a Nest because my home thermostat is upstairs, and the only thing upstairs are bedrooms. During the day, there's nothing to trip the sensor. Your phone makes a much better tracker for such things.
- lowlevel 13y ago
  So.. if you tend to keep your house on the cool side, expect to see more banner ads for slippers, sweaters and housecoats.
- dictum 13y ago
  > I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference (of all things...) and very great possible gains. That's where the problem lies: the greatest gains should come from features/sensors/products not yet introduced. Of course temperature preference is a very weak data point for privacy, but I can think of a few invasive things a future device could have. I don't know if that's actually possible with a device in that price point, but if a thermostat could know who is in a room, there's a lot of good/evil that could be done with that data.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Temperature preference is surely less interesting to them than when you are home (i.e. actively cooling/warming the house)
  - msandford 13y ago
    It would make it really easy for the DEA to figure out who the home pot growers are. Yeah you can look at utility bills in isolation but that generates a lot of false positives: people might just like to keep their house cold or warm (depending on the climate). But once you correlate house size (via the property appraiser's website, public records) with house temperate (which the NSA gets from Google and supplies to the DEA) and electricity usage (utility companies roll right over for these requests) it'll be much easier to put together a pool of target-rich "suspects" who need to be "investigated" to generate probable cause. Just one of the ways the data rich future just might subjugate us all!
    - objclxt 13y ago
      ...although many high-volume operations that are based inside of residential properties tend to use illegal/'off the grid' (so to speak) electrical connections...
      - msandford 13y ago
        Or you can install a bunch of solar panels and use them to power LEDs without ever connecting them up to the house's on-grid wiring system. That negates the need to permit it all and making that power usage completely invisible. At least until someone starts correlating satellite photos with solar permits. Then you're back on the radar, and maybe higher up since only people with something to hide have off-grid solar!
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  After the whole PRISM/NSA/GCHQ scandal I think there were two roads to take: make your internet life as secure and private as possible (I tried this, it was boring and probably futile) or realise that keeping information private is only going to get more and more difficult. If you come to the latter realisation as I eventually did things like this might excite you. The more info Google has on me the more exciting and useful it's products will be. I'm particularly excited about the future of Google Now.
  - dictum 13y ago
    Instead of giving up altogether, I suggest a different approach: choose your enemies and compartmentalize your personal data. Stuff related to your personal life and your feelings? You probably can't keep it from the NSA, but you can keep some of it from Google and Facebook. Super secret work stuff (think airplane parts, not stealth mobile app startups)? Cryptography and all kinds of misdirection to throw off spies. When Google knows a lot about me, it knows what cuisines I like, so when I search for "restaurant" it can return search results for restaurants I might like... except I could have searched for "<cuisine> restaurant in <place>" and the results would be good enough. Current returns are too marginal and my own judgement is often better; future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions — specialized search engines, for instance.
    - k-mcgrady 13y ago
      >> "future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions" My approach is based on thinking ahead and of the future benefits I might get from Google knowing my private information (Glass, Google Now etc). I never thought that "future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions". You've gave me something to think about!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mbrameld 13y ago
  The Nest contains some sensors (not 100% sure what type, a microphone and some type of motion sensor would be my guess though) used to determine whether you're home or not for their auto-away feature, so they get a little more than just your temperature preferences.
  - sixothree 13y ago
    If I remember correctly the device senses when you walk near it.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mortenjorck 13y ago
Google Analytics └ Audience └ Interests └ Other └ Ambient Temperature Preferences
- lstamour 13y ago
  lol ... I can see the ads now: Power outage? Bring 11ºC up to 20ºC. Hotel rooms from $109. Get an energy audit and stop those 3ºC/hr leaks, save $X/year. Broken furnace? Call XXX-XXX-XXXX now. Though ... indoor & outdoor temperature would be a fun addition to Google Now. And imagine if the Google Nest was a mini-server for home automation?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    Nest can't really act as a server for anything; it has insufficient power supply, probably under a watt. It can't even run its own tiny LCD screen on the power supplied by HVAC wiring. It uses that to charge an internal battery to run the screen when needed, and otherwise only partially wakes to poll the network occasionally.
    - lstamour 13y ago
      Good point, though I'm not sure how often a server needs to operate yet. I suppose I wasn't suggesting that Google should abandon the cloud and put servers in people's homes -- if anything, Nest has a pretty Google-ish architecture. We all know that Android with wifi and BLE is Google's most likely "home server" at this point -- that and whatever Nest comes up with next, including those more powerful smoke detectors.
- rmrfrmrf 13y ago
  Kind of makes me sick of my stomach.
jmedwards 13y ago
"You might be interested in: Fire Damage Repair - Specialists In Cleaning Fire Damage‎" Why might I be interes... OH MY GOD!!
jrs235 13y ago
Imagine the value Google will be able to provide advertisers correlating regional temperature preferences/settings and purchasing habits / levels. Homes that set their thermostat to 72 degrees during the winter months in the Midwest = Lexus ads or tropical vacation ads, 64 to 72 degrees = Toyota ads, less than 64 = [some brand or store] ads for bed comforters. ADD: And then in summer months... setting at 72 or less = Mercedes ads, 72 - 77 = mid income ads, > 77 = Fans and air conditioner ads.
ihsw 13y ago
Environment control is an excellent complement to self-driving cars, especially if/when they become ubiquitous.
blacksmith_tb 13y ago
The temperature preference can't be too exciting - I can imagine them crunching the data only to discover... most people like 68F or a little warmer! The motion detector is more interesting, since then in principle the device can make guesses about what your schedule implies about you ('works night shift'=='security guard', 'leaves house Sunday morning by 9'=='churchgoer' etc.), but I would have thought that kind of data would leak out of your email and online social.
mrinterweb 13y ago
I can see the google advertisements now. Spending too much on your heating/cooling? Save big at Acme heating & cooling.
- reuven 13y ago
  Better yet, they could add a microphone to the thermostat and smoke detector, and then the content of your speech for analysis.. to be used in advertisements. Yes, I'm talking about AdWords for conversations! Imagine your thermostat suddenly saying: "Excuse me, but I believe you've been speaking about ice cream. FYI, your local supermarket is running a special for the next 48 hours."

by jmduke 13y ago

Karunamon 13y ago

Am I the only one that doesn't get chills up their spine whenever Google breaks into some new market? I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference (of all things...) and very great possible gains. The more intimately a service knows you, the more personalized and relevant data it can bring. And another thing, I am really sick and tired of tempering or being told to temper my enthusiasm for some new technology or some novel use of existing technology just because it might be misused. Just about every technology that's wide-reaching enough has abuse potential. That is not an excuse for ludditism! Deal with the abuse instead of hamstringing the tech.

tilsammans 13y ago
> I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference Imagine that the season is changing where you live. You could be expected to start shopping for warm clothes. Google can easily show you ads for pricier warm clothes, and move organic results to page 2. Or Google knows you boiler broke down. And shows ads of pricier service companies instead of the lower-priced local fixer who is now on page 4. The immediate harm is that pricier alternatives are pushed to you, and you don't even know that cheaper alternatives exist, because Google controls your entire world.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  First, somehow I don't think Google is going to do this. This is a company that keeps a multimillion dollar liability on their front page (the "I'm feeling lucky" button) out of culture and deference to tradition. Secondly, what you suggest really isn't even misuse.
chrisrhoden 13y ago
What about the ability to know when someone is in your home and when someone is not? If Google records that data (say, to be able to provide you with a handy chart of your energy use and some ways to improve it), the potential I am more worried about is the fact that the data exists makes it possible to subpoena.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  The "bad guys" (I assume we're talking about government types) can park outside your house or just lean on the electric/gas company for that info already. Or considering how some people broadcast their location with Twitter/Foursquare/Facebook/Etc, just watch that.
  - chrisrhoden 13y ago
    Parking outside your house requires that they have enough interest in you to dedicate resources to the task. The electric/gas meter in your house is not literally designed to detect when there is a human home and when there is not.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      Nest really isn't great for that either, aside from what I'd call an adaptive timer based on how you adjust it. But if you have access to someone's live power usage, you probably have a good idea of their schedule. On top of that, your phone makes a much better tracker than your thermostat.
      - mbrameld 13y ago
        > Nest really isn't great for that either, aside from what I'd call an adaptive timer based on how you adjust it. What about the auto-away feature?
        Karunamon 13y ago
        Depends entirely on where it's located in your home. I've tried and sold a Nest because my home thermostat is upstairs, and the only thing upstairs are bedrooms. During the day, there's nothing to trip the sensor. Your phone makes a much better tracker for such things.
lowlevel 13y ago
So.. if you tend to keep your house on the cool side, expect to see more banner ads for slippers, sweaters and housecoats.
dictum 13y ago
> I see very little possible misuse of temperature preference (of all things...) and very great possible gains. That's where the problem lies: the greatest gains should come from features/sensors/products not yet introduced. Of course temperature preference is a very weak data point for privacy, but I can think of a few invasive things a future device could have. I don't know if that's actually possible with a device in that price point, but if a thermostat could know who is in a room, there's a lot of good/evil that could be done with that data.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Temperature preference is surely less interesting to them than when you are home (i.e. actively cooling/warming the house)
- msandford 13y ago
  It would make it really easy for the DEA to figure out who the home pot growers are. Yeah you can look at utility bills in isolation but that generates a lot of false positives: people might just like to keep their house cold or warm (depending on the climate). But once you correlate house size (via the property appraiser's website, public records) with house temperate (which the NSA gets from Google and supplies to the DEA) and electricity usage (utility companies roll right over for these requests) it'll be much easier to put together a pool of target-rich "suspects" who need to be "investigated" to generate probable cause. Just one of the ways the data rich future just might subjugate us all!
  - objclxt 13y ago
    ...although many high-volume operations that are based inside of residential properties tend to use illegal/'off the grid' (so to speak) electrical connections...
    - msandford 13y ago
      Or you can install a bunch of solar panels and use them to power LEDs without ever connecting them up to the house's on-grid wiring system. That negates the need to permit it all and making that power usage completely invisible. At least until someone starts correlating satellite photos with solar permits. Then you're back on the radar, and maybe higher up since only people with something to hide have off-grid solar!
k-mcgrady 13y ago
After the whole PRISM/NSA/GCHQ scandal I think there were two roads to take: make your internet life as secure and private as possible (I tried this, it was boring and probably futile) or realise that keeping information private is only going to get more and more difficult. If you come to the latter realisation as I eventually did things like this might excite you. The more info Google has on me the more exciting and useful it's products will be. I'm particularly excited about the future of Google Now.
- dictum 13y ago
  Instead of giving up altogether, I suggest a different approach: choose your enemies and compartmentalize your personal data. Stuff related to your personal life and your feelings? You probably can't keep it from the NSA, but you can keep some of it from Google and Facebook. Super secret work stuff (think airplane parts, not stealth mobile app startups)? Cryptography and all kinds of misdirection to throw off spies. When Google knows a lot about me, it knows what cuisines I like, so when I search for "restaurant" it can return search results for restaurants I might like... except I could have searched for "<cuisine> restaurant in <place>" and the results would be good enough. Current returns are too marginal and my own judgement is often better; future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions — specialized search engines, for instance.
  - k-mcgrady 13y ago
    >> "future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions" My approach is based on thinking ahead and of the future benefits I might get from Google knowing my private information (Glass, Google Now etc). I never thought that "future hypothetical returns may be matched by improvements that don't require so many privacy invasions". You've gave me something to think about!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mbrameld 13y ago
The Nest contains some sensors (not 100% sure what type, a microphone and some type of motion sensor would be my guess though) used to determine whether you're home or not for their auto-away feature, so they get a little more than just your temperature preferences.
- sixothree 13y ago
  If I remember correctly the device senses when you walk near it.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mortenjorck 13y ago

Google Analytics └ Audience └ Interests └ Other └ Ambient Temperature Preferences

lstamour 13y ago
lol ... I can see the ads now: Power outage? Bring 11ºC up to 20ºC. Hotel rooms from $109. Get an energy audit and stop those 3ºC/hr leaks, save $X/year. Broken furnace? Call XXX-XXX-XXXX now. Though ... indoor & outdoor temperature would be a fun addition to Google Now. And imagine if the Google Nest was a mini-server for home automation?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Nest can't really act as a server for anything; it has insufficient power supply, probably under a watt. It can't even run its own tiny LCD screen on the power supplied by HVAC wiring. It uses that to charge an internal battery to run the screen when needed, and otherwise only partially wakes to poll the network occasionally.
  - lstamour 13y ago
    Good point, though I'm not sure how often a server needs to operate yet. I suppose I wasn't suggesting that Google should abandon the cloud and put servers in people's homes -- if anything, Nest has a pretty Google-ish architecture. We all know that Android with wifi and BLE is Google's most likely "home server" at this point -- that and whatever Nest comes up with next, including those more powerful smoke detectors.
rmrfrmrf 13y ago
Kind of makes me sick of my stomach.

jmedwards 13y ago

"You might be interested in: Fire Damage Repair - Specialists In Cleaning Fire Damage‎" Why might I be interes... OH MY GOD!!

jrs235 13y ago

Imagine the value Google will be able to provide advertisers correlating regional temperature preferences/settings and purchasing habits / levels. Homes that set their thermostat to 72 degrees during the winter months in the Midwest = Lexus ads or tropical vacation ads, 64 to 72 degrees = Toyota ads, less than 64 = [some brand or store] ads for bed comforters. ADD: And then in summer months... setting at 72 or less = Mercedes ads, 72 - 77 = mid income ads, > 77 = Fans and air conditioner ads.

ihsw 13y ago

Environment control is an excellent complement to self-driving cars, especially if/when they become ubiquitous.

blacksmith_tb 13y ago

The temperature preference can't be too exciting - I can imagine them crunching the data only to discover... most people like 68F or a little warmer! The motion detector is more interesting, since then in principle the device can make guesses about what your schedule implies about you ('works night shift'=='security guard', 'leaves house Sunday morning by 9'=='churchgoer' etc.), but I would have thought that kind of data would leak out of your email and online social.

mrinterweb 13y ago

I can see the google advertisements now. Spending too much on your heating/cooling? Save big at Acme heating & cooling.

reuven 13y ago
Better yet, they could add a microphone to the thermostat and smoke detector, and then the content of your speech for analysis.. to be used in advertisements. Yes, I'm talking about AdWords for conversations! Imagine your thermostat suddenly saying: "Excuse me, but I believe you've been speaking about ice cream. FYI, your local supermarket is running a special for the next 48 hours."