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Most interesting paragraph in the excellent article >>Remember — until the mid-seventeenth century, most people in England were either slightly — or very — dru

by dba7dba 13y ago

Most interesting paragraph in the excellent article >>Remember — until the mid-seventeenth century, most people in England were either slightly — or very — drunk all of the time. Drink London’s fetid river water at your own peril; most people wisely favoured watered-down ale or beer (“small beer”). The arrival of coffee, then, triggered a dawn of sobriety that laid the foundations for truly spectacular economic growth in the decades that followed as people thought clearly for the first time. The stock exchange, insurance industry, and auctioneering: all burst into life in 17th-century coffeehouses — in Jonathan’s, Lloyd’s, and Garraway’s — spawning the credit, security, and markets that facilitated the dramatic expansion of Britain’s network of global trade in Asia, Africa and America.

nate_meurer 13y ago
In particular, the assertions about the causes and economic effects of that dawn of sobriety are extremely bold in the absence of any formal study. Plausible maybe, but the article doesn't defend them with data (what may exist). And this may be a stretch, but I do wonder if the popularity (and necessity) of coffeshop discussion was due in part to the crippling British copyright system depriving people of access to books, which started in the beginning of the 18th century: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-l... EDIT: And before the copyright system, the crippling monopoly over publishing enjoyed by the Stationers Company, which took hold in the early 15th century. My point being that Britain had long endured a stifling of written discourse, possibly encouraging verbal discourse in its stead.
- gruseom 13y ago
  As the article makes clear, the coffeehouse scene exploded in popularity well before the end of the 17th century. By 1675 the king is already trying (and failing) to shut them down.
  - nate_meurer 13y ago
    Point granted, but irrelevant given the oppressive state of British publishing even before the Copyright Act of 1709 (see my edit above).
- dba7dba 13y ago
  I don't know if a real study needs to be done to find out a population can be more creative/productive when they go from slightly (or very) drunk to being hyper caffeinated.
  - nate_meurer 13y ago
    The effect of alcohol consumption in GDP is not a trivial thing to study. AFAIK, research has shown only slight affects on GDP. Take for example this study on "The societal cost of alcohol consumption" in Sweden, which showed only around 1% change in GDP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043953 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043953 I rather suspect that correlating caffeine to GDP would be even more difficult. Either way, the article doesn't even try to support these assertions factually. Which is OK -- it's a well-written article on an interesting subject. It's just good to keep in mind that some of the material is highly speculative.
    - cgh 13y ago
      Not just GDP but also nation-altering events such as warfare. I recommend "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman if you haven't already read it, as it's a wonderful book (medieval history, but it still applies here). Tuchman mentions our modern bewilderment at the insanely rash and reactionary decisions that were often taken by nobility in those times - declarations of war, terrible combat strategy and so forth, and which affected so many lives (mostly those of the poor). She goes on to speculate that these decisions make sense in the context of near-permanent drunkenness.
      - pattisapu 13y ago
        And [IIRC she also notes that] many of them were hotheaded teenagers / twenty-somethings. With the life expectancy of those days one had to grow up fast. And yet many did not.
    - superuser2 13y ago
      This study is looking at modern recreational alcohol consumption. It's perfectly believable that its effect would be minor. This an entirely different scenario from entirely replacing water with alcohol and being at least slightly drunk all the time. Not "all the time" as in "every weekend" but every hour of the day, including work.

by dba7dba 13y ago

nate_meurer 13y ago

In particular, the assertions about the causes and economic effects of that dawn of sobriety are extremely bold in the absence of any formal study. Plausible maybe, but the article doesn't defend them with data (what may exist). And this may be a stretch, but I do wonder if the popularity (and necessity) of coffeshop discussion was due in part to the crippling British copyright system depriving people of access to books, which started in the beginning of the 18th century: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-l... EDIT: And before the copyright system, the crippling monopoly over publishing enjoyed by the Stationers Company, which took hold in the early 15th century. My point being that Britain had long endured a stifling of written discourse, possibly encouraging verbal discourse in its stead.

gruseom 13y ago
As the article makes clear, the coffeehouse scene exploded in popularity well before the end of the 17th century. By 1675 the king is already trying (and failing) to shut them down.
- nate_meurer 13y ago
  Point granted, but irrelevant given the oppressive state of British publishing even before the Copyright Act of 1709 (see my edit above).
dba7dba 13y ago
I don't know if a real study needs to be done to find out a population can be more creative/productive when they go from slightly (or very) drunk to being hyper caffeinated.
- nate_meurer 13y ago
  The effect of alcohol consumption in GDP is not a trivial thing to study. AFAIK, research has shown only slight affects on GDP. Take for example this study on "The societal cost of alcohol consumption" in Sweden, which showed only around 1% change in GDP: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043953 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043953 I rather suspect that correlating caffeine to GDP would be even more difficult. Either way, the article doesn't even try to support these assertions factually. Which is OK -- it's a well-written article on an interesting subject. It's just good to keep in mind that some of the material is highly speculative.
  - cgh 13y ago
    Not just GDP but also nation-altering events such as warfare. I recommend "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman if you haven't already read it, as it's a wonderful book (medieval history, but it still applies here). Tuchman mentions our modern bewilderment at the insanely rash and reactionary decisions that were often taken by nobility in those times - declarations of war, terrible combat strategy and so forth, and which affected so many lives (mostly those of the poor). She goes on to speculate that these decisions make sense in the context of near-permanent drunkenness.
    - pattisapu 13y ago
      And [IIRC she also notes that] many of them were hotheaded teenagers / twenty-somethings. With the life expectancy of those days one had to grow up fast. And yet many did not.
  - superuser2 13y ago
    This study is looking at modern recreational alcohol consumption. It's perfectly believable that its effect would be minor. This an entirely different scenario from entirely replacing water with alcohol and being at least slightly drunk all the time. Not "all the time" as in "every weekend" but every hour of the day, including work.