14 ms·

After making the switch to OS X in the last couple years after living in Linux and Windows before that, I think it's objective to say that keyboard shortcuts in

by guelo 13y ago

After making the switch to OS X in the last couple years after living in Linux and Windows before that, I think it's objective to say that keyboard shortcuts in OS X are much worse in both ease of use and consistency across applications.

dijit 13y ago
I tend to find the opposite to be true. C-a is always "beginning of line" and Command-C is always Copy. and never the twain shall meet. (I've had issues in linux going from terminal to windows, in fact very recently I kept ^W'ing while in GUI mode)
jeffcox 13y ago
Not sure if I'm falling for sarcasm, or just an outlier for feeling the exact opposite...
- saurik 13y ago
  Same (and to be clear, this is from someone who only "switched" to OS X a few years ago because of the demands of my user community: and for the first year I hated it, as I liked neither the hardware nor OS X 10.5). So, to add some concrete-ness: what fundamentally makes OS X better at this is the way the command key is used; almost everything that has to do with the UI or the system is bound to the command key, which means that control and option are free for usage by my terminal. I thereby never run into any confusion using ctrl-c to copy something or alt-tab to switch between windows: command means nothing to my terminal, and control and option get bound to control and alt (not the default in Terminal, but its one checkbox to fix), passed to whatever actual application I'm running. On both Windows and Linux the control and alt keys tend to overlap in usage between graphical and console applications, meaning the graphical terminal I'm using invariably has some confusing overlap with the keyboard commands I might want to send to my console app. (Now, there are some unfortunate defaults in Terminal with relation to page up/down and home/end, but those are both easily fixed--a few minutes of setup before sitting down--and somewhat irrelevant as any one who even remotely cares about using a terminal should have installed iTerm2 forever ago.) (Ironically and relevantly, the reason Terminal has irritating defaults is specifically because Apple has actually been really good about having keyboard shortcuts be consistent across every application: they want option, page up, and home to do the exact same things in Terminal that it would do in any other app, even to the extent to which those behaviors are useless and counter-productive when you are actually just trying to use vim/emacs and bash/zsh like a normal person ;P.)
  - jeffcox 13y ago
    Everyone hates on Terminal, but I've made the changes you mentioned and I tend to prefer it to iTerm. I can't really quantify it. I definitely think TotalTerminal is superior to the equivalent feature in iTerm, and due to the nature of my work I tend to pop in and out of the visor frequently.
    - saurik 13y ago
      My key problem with Terminal is that its terminal emulation is not actually that good: I often would run into scenarios where it would miscalculate some width, fail to winch a pty across a level of screen, or get wedged in a state that reset was unable to fix, that I simply couldn't take it anymore.
jlarocco 13y ago
I have to agree. I fought with it a while, looking for third party utilities to fill the void, but eventually I realized it was more trouble than it was worth and gave up. I guess I got used to it, because I don't even miss them any more.
- egypturnash 13y ago
  If you want to change command key-centric menu shortcuts for a program, you can do that in the keyboard pane of system prefs.
  - jlarocco 13y ago
    No. In Linux I have global keyboard shortcuts to launch specific applications and do some other stuff. I hit a key combo and a new terminal pops up, or a new tab pops up in my browser, or a new email, or the Python shell, or whatever else I want. It launches regardless of what other application I'm currently using. In OSX, last time I looked (maybe a version or two ago), there was really no builtin way to achieve the same thing. Command+Space then typing what I want to open is pretty close, but way more keystrokes, and not as powerful.
    - fyrabanks 13y ago
      It won't reduce keystrokes, but if you're looking for something more powerful try Launchbar. Alternatively, Quicksilver's free, but I haven't used it in a couple years and management changed hands; so I'm not sure how good it is now.
      - redacted 13y ago
        Quicksilver nearly died, but the community resuscitated it and it is currently working better than ever (YMMV, I never used half of the crazy stuff Quicksilver can do)
    - matthewmacleod 13y ago
      This have been available for many versions. It's not quite as straightforward, but you can define custom services using Automator, and subsequently bind them to any key combo using System Preferences. Since Automator workflows can do pretty much anything (like running AppleScripts, shell scripts, manipulating other apps etc...) you're pretty much free to do what you want.
tekacs 13y ago
After switching to OS X after spending years using Windows and then Linux, I found it patently the case that the keyboard shortcuts in OS X are much better in both ease of use and consistency across applications. The use of the Command key and a bunch of standard shortcuts using it are particularly notable. #notsoobjective
- WildUtah 13y ago
  After switching to OS X after spending years using Windows and then Linux, I found it patently the case that the keyboard shortcuts in OS X are much better than Windows and much worse than Linux in both ease of use and consistency across applications.
  - nu2ycombinator 13y ago
    I agree. I like in same order Linux > OSX > windows
  - tekacs 13y ago
    Saurik makes most of the points that I would have if I had expounded on my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051899 If naught else, I will say that: - The use of Cmd so widely and consistently makes it easy to bind one's own shortcuts to Ctrl/Shift/Alt/... (every menu in almost every application I use contains only Cmd shortcuts). - The ability to remap shortcuts to anything in a menu being built into the system for all apps systemwide (System Preferences -> Keyboard) is amazing and underappreciated, methinks. - The almost completely consistent use of a single windowing toolkit (Cocoa) everywhere makes a whole bunch of controls incredibly consistent in feel, which includes all textboxes supporting OS X and Emacs cursor movement keys, irrespective of the application - the mind boggles. o_O - Similarly, the systemwide use of Cocoa means that the endless tools that allow for keyboard rebinding and window movement that we see (Slate, BetterTouchTool, ...) not only can exist but work very reliably and with few corner cases with most-every application on the system, oftentimes through the Assisted Access APIs (another thing Apple do well on all their platforms, I'm quite reliably informed). OTOH, on Linux I use Xmonad as my DE and I will admit to missing the amazing keyboard-based window control I get with the tiling window manager (I use Slate on OS X for a poor facsimile to the same effect).
methodin 13y ago
It's especially painful if a Mac is not your primary development environment but you need to hack on one occasionally. I can have a familiar terminal or a familiar desktop but cannot have both simultaneously and there's no way to train myself to use the command key due to frequency.
meshko 13y ago
Generally speaking, OS X is amazingly bad at all things UI given how good it is.
- welly 13y ago
  Examples? If you don't get on with the OS X UI then there is little help left for you.
oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
Not just keyboard shortcuts, but straight out keys (e.g. Page up / Page down)
- archagon 13y ago
  Fn+up/down and Fn+left/right are easier to use and just make much more conceptual space to me than the PgUp/PgDown/Home/End key blob.
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    If you're lucky enough to have an Fn key on your keyboard. Is there an equivalent for those of us who are bereft?
  - likeclockwork 13y ago
    Hrm.. I don't use OSX, in my fingers... home goes to the beginning of the line, and ctrl+home goes to the beginning of the document.. If I want to select to the begining of the document ctrl+shift+home... in OSX does that mean to select to the beginning of the document it'd be something like fn+command+shift+left ?
    - samatman 13y ago
      These are command-arrow functions. Cm-left is beginning of line, Cm-up top of document, and so on. Select to beginning of document is Shift-Cm-Up, and so on.
- bluthru 13y ago
  Cmd + Arrow keys. Simple.
natural219 13y ago
Sorry, but this is laughable. Keyboard shortcuts are far more useful and consistent across applications in OS X. I'm failing to understand how you could form this opinion...which shortcuts / programs don't meet your expectations? I guess I can sum this up by saying OS X has an additional modifier key than Windows, so you basically have 33% more power right out of the gate. The "Windows Key" is nearly useless.
- kps 13y ago
  And OS X doesn't steal Control for menu shortcuts. Control-V (literal) is not the same as Command-V (paste), Control-Z (suspend) is not the same as Command-Z (undo), and so on. X Window software used to get this right, too; Unix workstations generally had another modifier (e.g. Meta, diamond on Suns) since they knew better than to hijack keys people would type in a terminal. It's only the this-is-finally-the-year-of-Linux-on-the-desktop crowd slavishly imitating Microsoft's mistakes that screwed it up.
  - philsnow 13y ago
    "X Window software" hasn't really changed very much in the last couple decades. I use distinct Control, Shift, Meta/Alt, and Hyper keys. The blame lies with "desktop environments", not X. X has plenty of its own problems without getting Gnome's problems heaped on top. Edit: > It's only the this-is-finally-the-year-of-Linux-on-the-desktop crowd slavishly imitating Microsoft's mistakes that screwed it up. Most of the recent garbage they've cargo-culted from Apple (and common software for OS X), not Microsoft. Witness the really shitty reimplementation of Growl, the really shitty (and shamefully unmandated) window menu bar -> system menu bar consolidation.
    - kps 13y ago
      Oh, I agree with you — I perhaps should have written something like “*nix workstation software” rather than “X Window software”. I do use a separate Meta as well, and try to avoid programs that can't be configured to use it (GNOME-aligned ones being the most common). And hey, as far as ‘really shitty reimplementations of Growl’ go, even Apple has one now.
kabdib 13y ago
After using OS X for a few months, I weep every time I use the commandline on Windows. There's just no reason for Windows to be that bad.
- alexk7 13y ago
  Did you try Powershell?
  - kabdib 13y ago
    Yup. I'm not going to get into a vacuous PowerShell bashing discussionlet here, but let's just say that PS didn't fulfill the promises the documentation made. I found that the marshaling semantics were often quite surprising and required awkward workarounds (really don't unflatten lists of people, okay?). I second the "everything is about five syllables" and sure, you can set up aliases, but I went through that hell on VAX/VMS and don't want to go back.
  - Aloisius 13y ago
    I've tried powershell, but it still seems to launch in that same ancient command window they've used for years with the exceptionally strange copy & paste characteristics (seriously, why can't it copy wrapped multi-line wrapped commands without inserting newlines when I paste?). Also why does it want to scroll past the end of the buffer? Ugh. Plus why are all the built-in commands like 20 characters long and camel cased?
    - seabee 13y ago
      The built-in commands are aliased, which is probably the most infuriating part; clearly they thought it necessary to name the listing functionality 'Get-ChildItem' and refer to it by that in all the documentation so as not to blow our pretty little sysadmin minds when we discover ls/dir could list more than directories now. Who knew Microsoft was fractal in nature? Anyway, if you have to suffer PowerShell at least do it in the ISE.
    - Quiark 13y ago
      You need ConEmu.
sbov 13y ago
I wouldn't call it objective, but I've been using osx exclusively for 3 years now and shortcuts still come slower than windows, primarily because on windows I can press control and any key using just one hand by using my pinky for the control key.
- eyesee 13y ago
  I've found that lots of Windows converts haven't learned to use a thumb to hold the command key instead of a finger. Much easier to chord that way and you don't need to leave home position. It's easier for me than pinky-control since I have more dexterity in my thumbs.
  - TheSoftwareGuy 13y ago
    I use that and remapping control to caps lock, for all my custom bindings in terminal.
  - xixixao 13y ago
    I started using OS X about 6 months ago. Even though I am totally fine using the thumb now for pressing the command key, I do always feel as if I was moving an octave down on a piano keyboard (I used to learn when I was a kid). Depending on where the control is on your keyboard (Windows vendors keep swapping FN and CTRL unfortunately, and rebinding might not be easy), I think the position of the hand is more natural - on the other hand, you might strain your pinky when pressing CTRL (or SHIFT) for long time and I haven't noticed that with using my thumb yet (and I doubt it will happen, given it is a much stronger finger).
- iguana 13y ago
  Remap capslock to control.
archagon 13y ago
Why would you even put the word "objective" in there, especially without providing any arguments? What's the point? To rile people up?
Tehnix 13y ago
Besides totally disagreeing with you; are you aware that you can always bind you own shortcuts to any menu item via System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Shortcuts ?

by guelo 13y ago

dijit 13y ago

I tend to find the opposite to be true. C-a is always "beginning of line" and Command-C is always Copy. and never the twain shall meet. (I've had issues in linux going from terminal to windows, in fact very recently I kept ^W'ing while in GUI mode)

jeffcox 13y ago

Not sure if I'm falling for sarcasm, or just an outlier for feeling the exact opposite...

saurik 13y ago
Same (and to be clear, this is from someone who only "switched" to OS X a few years ago because of the demands of my user community: and for the first year I hated it, as I liked neither the hardware nor OS X 10.5). So, to add some concrete-ness: what fundamentally makes OS X better at this is the way the command key is used; almost everything that has to do with the UI or the system is bound to the command key, which means that control and option are free for usage by my terminal. I thereby never run into any confusion using ctrl-c to copy something or alt-tab to switch between windows: command means nothing to my terminal, and control and option get bound to control and alt (not the default in Terminal, but its one checkbox to fix), passed to whatever actual application I'm running. On both Windows and Linux the control and alt keys tend to overlap in usage between graphical and console applications, meaning the graphical terminal I'm using invariably has some confusing overlap with the keyboard commands I might want to send to my console app. (Now, there are some unfortunate defaults in Terminal with relation to page up/down and home/end, but those are both easily fixed--a few minutes of setup before sitting down--and somewhat irrelevant as any one who even remotely cares about using a terminal should have installed iTerm2 forever ago.) (Ironically and relevantly, the reason Terminal has irritating defaults is specifically because Apple has actually been really good about having keyboard shortcuts be consistent across every application: they want option, page up, and home to do the exact same things in Terminal that it would do in any other app, even to the extent to which those behaviors are useless and counter-productive when you are actually just trying to use vim/emacs and bash/zsh like a normal person ;P.)
- jeffcox 13y ago
  Everyone hates on Terminal, but I've made the changes you mentioned and I tend to prefer it to iTerm. I can't really quantify it. I definitely think TotalTerminal is superior to the equivalent feature in iTerm, and due to the nature of my work I tend to pop in and out of the visor frequently.
  - saurik 13y ago
    My key problem with Terminal is that its terminal emulation is not actually that good: I often would run into scenarios where it would miscalculate some width, fail to winch a pty across a level of screen, or get wedged in a state that reset was unable to fix, that I simply couldn't take it anymore.

jlarocco 13y ago

I have to agree. I fought with it a while, looking for third party utilities to fill the void, but eventually I realized it was more trouble than it was worth and gave up. I guess I got used to it, because I don't even miss them any more.

egypturnash 13y ago
If you want to change command key-centric menu shortcuts for a program, you can do that in the keyboard pane of system prefs.
- jlarocco 13y ago
  No. In Linux I have global keyboard shortcuts to launch specific applications and do some other stuff. I hit a key combo and a new terminal pops up, or a new tab pops up in my browser, or a new email, or the Python shell, or whatever else I want. It launches regardless of what other application I'm currently using. In OSX, last time I looked (maybe a version or two ago), there was really no builtin way to achieve the same thing. Command+Space then typing what I want to open is pretty close, but way more keystrokes, and not as powerful.
  - fyrabanks 13y ago
    It won't reduce keystrokes, but if you're looking for something more powerful try Launchbar. Alternatively, Quicksilver's free, but I haven't used it in a couple years and management changed hands; so I'm not sure how good it is now.
    - redacted 13y ago
      Quicksilver nearly died, but the community resuscitated it and it is currently working better than ever (YMMV, I never used half of the crazy stuff Quicksilver can do)
  - matthewmacleod 13y ago
    This have been available for many versions. It's not quite as straightforward, but you can define custom services using Automator, and subsequently bind them to any key combo using System Preferences. Since Automator workflows can do pretty much anything (like running AppleScripts, shell scripts, manipulating other apps etc...) you're pretty much free to do what you want.

tekacs 13y ago

After switching to OS X after spending years using Windows and then Linux, I found it patently the case that the keyboard shortcuts in OS X are much better in both ease of use and consistency across applications. The use of the Command key and a bunch of standard shortcuts using it are particularly notable. #notsoobjective

WildUtah 13y ago
After switching to OS X after spending years using Windows and then Linux, I found it patently the case that the keyboard shortcuts in OS X are much better than Windows and much worse than Linux in both ease of use and consistency across applications.
- nu2ycombinator 13y ago
  I agree. I like in same order Linux > OSX > windows
- tekacs 13y ago
  Saurik makes most of the points that I would have if I had expounded on my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051899 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7051899 If naught else, I will say that: - The use of Cmd so widely and consistently makes it easy to bind one's own shortcuts to Ctrl/Shift/Alt/... (every menu in almost every application I use contains only Cmd shortcuts). - The ability to remap shortcuts to anything in a menu being built into the system for all apps systemwide (System Preferences -> Keyboard) is amazing and underappreciated, methinks. - The almost completely consistent use of a single windowing toolkit (Cocoa) everywhere makes a whole bunch of controls incredibly consistent in feel, which includes all textboxes supporting OS X and Emacs cursor movement keys, irrespective of the application - the mind boggles. o_O - Similarly, the systemwide use of Cocoa means that the endless tools that allow for keyboard rebinding and window movement that we see (Slate, BetterTouchTool, ...) not only can exist but work very reliably and with few corner cases with most-every application on the system, oftentimes through the Assisted Access APIs (another thing Apple do well on all their platforms, I'm quite reliably informed). OTOH, on Linux I use Xmonad as my DE and I will admit to missing the amazing keyboard-based window control I get with the tiling window manager (I use Slate on OS X for a poor facsimile to the same effect).

methodin 13y ago

It's especially painful if a Mac is not your primary development environment but you need to hack on one occasionally. I can have a familiar terminal or a familiar desktop but cannot have both simultaneously and there's no way to train myself to use the command key due to frequency.

meshko 13y ago

Generally speaking, OS X is amazingly bad at all things UI given how good it is.

welly 13y ago
Examples? If you don't get on with the OS X UI then there is little help left for you.

oneeyedpigeon 13y ago

Not just keyboard shortcuts, but straight out keys (e.g. Page up / Page down)

archagon 13y ago
Fn+up/down and Fn+left/right are easier to use and just make much more conceptual space to me than the PgUp/PgDown/Home/End key blob.
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  If you're lucky enough to have an Fn key on your keyboard. Is there an equivalent for those of us who are bereft?
- likeclockwork 13y ago
  Hrm.. I don't use OSX, in my fingers... home goes to the beginning of the line, and ctrl+home goes to the beginning of the document.. If I want to select to the begining of the document ctrl+shift+home... in OSX does that mean to select to the beginning of the document it'd be something like fn+command+shift+left ?
  - samatman 13y ago
    These are command-arrow functions. Cm-left is beginning of line, Cm-up top of document, and so on. Select to beginning of document is Shift-Cm-Up, and so on.
bluthru 13y ago
Cmd + Arrow keys. Simple.

natural219 13y ago

Sorry, but this is laughable. Keyboard shortcuts are far more useful and consistent across applications in OS X. I'm failing to understand how you could form this opinion...which shortcuts / programs don't meet your expectations? I guess I can sum this up by saying OS X has an additional modifier key than Windows, so you basically have 33% more power right out of the gate. The "Windows Key" is nearly useless.

kps 13y ago
And OS X doesn't steal Control for menu shortcuts. Control-V (literal) is not the same as Command-V (paste), Control-Z (suspend) is not the same as Command-Z (undo), and so on. X Window software used to get this right, too; Unix workstations generally had another modifier (e.g. Meta, diamond on Suns) since they knew better than to hijack keys people would type in a terminal. It's only the this-is-finally-the-year-of-Linux-on-the-desktop crowd slavishly imitating Microsoft's mistakes that screwed it up.
- philsnow 13y ago
  "X Window software" hasn't really changed very much in the last couple decades. I use distinct Control, Shift, Meta/Alt, and Hyper keys. The blame lies with "desktop environments", not X. X has plenty of its own problems without getting Gnome's problems heaped on top. Edit: > It's only the this-is-finally-the-year-of-Linux-on-the-desktop crowd slavishly imitating Microsoft's mistakes that screwed it up. Most of the recent garbage they've cargo-culted from Apple (and common software for OS X), not Microsoft. Witness the really shitty reimplementation of Growl, the really shitty (and shamefully unmandated) window menu bar -> system menu bar consolidation.
  - kps 13y ago
    Oh, I agree with you — I perhaps should have written something like “*nix workstation software” rather than “X Window software”. I do use a separate Meta as well, and try to avoid programs that can't be configured to use it (GNOME-aligned ones being the most common). And hey, as far as ‘really shitty reimplementations of Growl’ go, even Apple has one now.

kabdib 13y ago

After using OS X for a few months, I weep every time I use the commandline on Windows. There's just no reason for Windows to be that bad.

alexk7 13y ago
Did you try Powershell?
- kabdib 13y ago
  Yup. I'm not going to get into a vacuous PowerShell bashing discussionlet here, but let's just say that PS didn't fulfill the promises the documentation made. I found that the marshaling semantics were often quite surprising and required awkward workarounds (really don't unflatten lists of people, okay?). I second the "everything is about five syllables" and sure, you can set up aliases, but I went through that hell on VAX/VMS and don't want to go back.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  I've tried powershell, but it still seems to launch in that same ancient command window they've used for years with the exceptionally strange copy & paste characteristics (seriously, why can't it copy wrapped multi-line wrapped commands without inserting newlines when I paste?). Also why does it want to scroll past the end of the buffer? Ugh. Plus why are all the built-in commands like 20 characters long and camel cased?
  - seabee 13y ago
    The built-in commands are aliased, which is probably the most infuriating part; clearly they thought it necessary to name the listing functionality 'Get-ChildItem' and refer to it by that in all the documentation so as not to blow our pretty little sysadmin minds when we discover ls/dir could list more than directories now. Who knew Microsoft was fractal in nature? Anyway, if you have to suffer PowerShell at least do it in the ISE.
  - Quiark 13y ago
    You need ConEmu.

sbov 13y ago

I wouldn't call it objective, but I've been using osx exclusively for 3 years now and shortcuts still come slower than windows, primarily because on windows I can press control and any key using just one hand by using my pinky for the control key.

eyesee 13y ago
I've found that lots of Windows converts haven't learned to use a thumb to hold the command key instead of a finger. Much easier to chord that way and you don't need to leave home position. It's easier for me than pinky-control since I have more dexterity in my thumbs.
- TheSoftwareGuy 13y ago
  I use that and remapping control to caps lock, for all my custom bindings in terminal.
- xixixao 13y ago
  I started using OS X about 6 months ago. Even though I am totally fine using the thumb now for pressing the command key, I do always feel as if I was moving an octave down on a piano keyboard (I used to learn when I was a kid). Depending on where the control is on your keyboard (Windows vendors keep swapping FN and CTRL unfortunately, and rebinding might not be easy), I think the position of the hand is more natural - on the other hand, you might strain your pinky when pressing CTRL (or SHIFT) for long time and I haven't noticed that with using my thumb yet (and I doubt it will happen, given it is a much stronger finger).
iguana 13y ago
Remap capslock to control.

archagon 13y ago

Why would you even put the word "objective" in there, especially without providing any arguments? What's the point? To rile people up?

Tehnix 13y ago

Besides totally disagreeing with you; are you aware that you can always bind you own shortcuts to any menu item via System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Shortcuts ?