4 ms·

Making a bike pollutes more than making a car? Not even to mention usage pollution itself (which I primarily had in mind)... Also, just compare a lifespan of a

by jablan 13y ago

Making a bike pollutes more than making a car? Not even to mention usage pollution itself (which I primarily had in mind)... Also, just compare a lifespan of a car vs. a lifespan of a bicycle. I have several bicycles, the one I use mostly is around 20 years old, I have others considerably older than that, still functioning perfectly.

losvedir 13y ago
Yeah, there's no way making a bike pollutes more than making a car. However, there's a slightly more interesting analysis to be had if you consider that car fuel is way more efficient than bike fuel (human calories). So maybe, just maybe, a sufficiently poor diet can cause riding a bike to work to be worse for the environment than driving.
- VLM 13y ago
  Although there are outliers with super-bikers riding 20 year old bikes for thousands of miles per year, joe 6 pack average dude finds bikes are extremely high maintenance demands per mile, expensive to maintain per mile, and make 1970s detroit iron look reliable and long lived. I have a "Giant" from 1992 and I am not a serious bike rider but I believe I've purchased more tires for the bike than for my car, despite commuting probably 100x further in my car. Bikes are a serious headache to maintain compared to a decent car. If someone could design a bicycle that lasted as long as a car for normal users, that required as little maintenance as a car for the first decade or so, that was as reliable as a car, that blew out tires as rarely as a car, then it would be one heck of a bike... unfortunately due to lack of economy of scale and having almost nothing in common with conventional bike design, it would probably cost almost as much as a car...
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Such bikes do exist. Unfortunately people's expectations of cost are skewed by cheap bicycle-shaped objects in department stores. Look at nations that have cycling as a way of life. "Mama fiets" (apologies for potential misuse of Dutch language) are robust bikes for carrying children and shopping around. There are puncture resisting tapes that can be applied to tyres. Most people don't need fixed wheels, nor 20 gear derailurs, but would do well with 5 well chosen gears. Aluminum frames (with modern welding and tube shapes) are light and robust. And probably a good use of recycled aluminum. And people tend not to educate themselves about cycling. Having the seat post at the right hight makes a huge difference. Using the balls of the toe on the pedal and not the arch of the foot makes a huge difference. Many people would be served well by a £500 bike and a book about cycling. Include a basket and some panniers and mud guards, with a can of spray lubrication and a few spare tyres and replacement chains. I agree that cycle shops usually are not set up for this, and that the image of flourescent lycra is off-putting to many people; and that it would be great if commuting by bike was more accessible.
  - gyepi 13y ago
    Ex bike repair professional here. It's definitely possible for your bike to need way less maintenance than a car and to provide very few headaches. In your case, I recommend that you buy very good tires. Most bikes have cheap tires, which dry rot. Some of my bikes have tires that are 6-10 years old and still working fine. They also cost $40 apiece back then. In general, most bikes are designed for the recreational "joe 6 pack" market and are of poor quality. If you expect a bike to work well and last a long time, you have to pay extra.
  - colin_mccabe 13y ago
    It really depends on what kind of bike you buy. I have a steel-frame bike with hub gearing. It's never needed any repairs for 3 years, aside from tightening a bolt. It was really surprising to me that when I switched from using a derailleur to using hub gearing, I suddenly no longer needed to get my bike tuned every 2 months to avoid gears slipping. And when I got a steel frame, I suddenly no longer needed to worry about it bending out of shape all the time.
- jablan 13y ago
  Sorry, it's very hard to even conceive the constraints and abstractions under which a bike would be worse for the environment than driving. First and foremost, riding a bike relies on sustainable energy (grow, eat, repeat). Cars are still far far away from being remotely sustainable. Car vs. bike discussion may have (some) sense when it comes to commuting distances, adverse weather conditions etc.
  - VLM 13y ago
    All purchased food relies on unsustainable energy sources and nearly all food relies on unsustainable fertilization and other petroleum derived products. I have a super minimalistic garden and grow some of my own salad vegetables in the summer but I'm under no illusions and 99% of my food calories come indirectly from crude oil and natgas. My car doesn't burn biodiesel and isn't made of soy. The store is illuminated and HVAC by natgas and coal. The delivery truck from the warehouse doesn't burn biodiesel and isn't made of soy. The warehouse burns lots of coal for its HVAC and lights. The trucks delivering to the warehouse don't run on biodiesel and aren't made of soy. Assuming produce and not "processed food-like substances" the farm uses diesel to run the tractor and other gear, some coal powered electricity in the greenhouse, fertilizers made of phosphates dug out of the ground (what to do when they run out?) and nitrates made by the haber process outta lots of natgas. Also there may or may not be herbicides / pesticides / fertilizers made out of crude oil. If your food is cheaper per "gallon" than diesel, its at least theoretically possible to make it with biodiesel and be net energy positive. If it takes 20 gallons of diesel equivalent environmental damage to make a gallon of walnut oil, then if you poured walnut oil into a biodiesel tank the system would rapidly run dry and halt. Computer science types have a stereotype where the "halting problem" can't be solved for them so it can't be solved anywhere, although energy calculations are actually pretty simple (yes yes I know totally different type of halting its a bad joke). If (Energy Returned) is less than (Energy Invested) then the only way to keep pumping food out is to burn crude oil to make up the difference. Depending what axe you have to grind, EROEI of food varies from 0.1 to 1. The truth is probably within that range, perhaps 0.3. A pound of fat (animal hydrocarbon, basically) is worth 3500 or so calories so the environment is better off if you burn two pounds of gasoline than if you eat a pound of food (aka equivalent of 3 pounds of diesel burned to make it) and bike the same distance.

by jablan 13y ago

losvedir 13y ago

Yeah, there's no way making a bike pollutes more than making a car. However, there's a slightly more interesting analysis to be had if you consider that car fuel is way more efficient than bike fuel (human calories). So maybe, just maybe, a sufficiently poor diet can cause riding a bike to work to be worse for the environment than driving.

VLM 13y ago
Although there are outliers with super-bikers riding 20 year old bikes for thousands of miles per year, joe 6 pack average dude finds bikes are extremely high maintenance demands per mile, expensive to maintain per mile, and make 1970s detroit iron look reliable and long lived. I have a "Giant" from 1992 and I am not a serious bike rider but I believe I've purchased more tires for the bike than for my car, despite commuting probably 100x further in my car. Bikes are a serious headache to maintain compared to a decent car. If someone could design a bicycle that lasted as long as a car for normal users, that required as little maintenance as a car for the first decade or so, that was as reliable as a car, that blew out tires as rarely as a car, then it would be one heck of a bike... unfortunately due to lack of economy of scale and having almost nothing in common with conventional bike design, it would probably cost almost as much as a car...
- DanBC 13y ago
  Such bikes do exist. Unfortunately people's expectations of cost are skewed by cheap bicycle-shaped objects in department stores. Look at nations that have cycling as a way of life. "Mama fiets" (apologies for potential misuse of Dutch language) are robust bikes for carrying children and shopping around. There are puncture resisting tapes that can be applied to tyres. Most people don't need fixed wheels, nor 20 gear derailurs, but would do well with 5 well chosen gears. Aluminum frames (with modern welding and tube shapes) are light and robust. And probably a good use of recycled aluminum. And people tend not to educate themselves about cycling. Having the seat post at the right hight makes a huge difference. Using the balls of the toe on the pedal and not the arch of the foot makes a huge difference. Many people would be served well by a £500 bike and a book about cycling. Include a basket and some panniers and mud guards, with a can of spray lubrication and a few spare tyres and replacement chains. I agree that cycle shops usually are not set up for this, and that the image of flourescent lycra is off-putting to many people; and that it would be great if commuting by bike was more accessible.
- gyepi 13y ago
  Ex bike repair professional here. It's definitely possible for your bike to need way less maintenance than a car and to provide very few headaches. In your case, I recommend that you buy very good tires. Most bikes have cheap tires, which dry rot. Some of my bikes have tires that are 6-10 years old and still working fine. They also cost $40 apiece back then. In general, most bikes are designed for the recreational "joe 6 pack" market and are of poor quality. If you expect a bike to work well and last a long time, you have to pay extra.
- colin_mccabe 13y ago
  It really depends on what kind of bike you buy. I have a steel-frame bike with hub gearing. It's never needed any repairs for 3 years, aside from tightening a bolt. It was really surprising to me that when I switched from using a derailleur to using hub gearing, I suddenly no longer needed to get my bike tuned every 2 months to avoid gears slipping. And when I got a steel frame, I suddenly no longer needed to worry about it bending out of shape all the time.
jablan 13y ago
Sorry, it's very hard to even conceive the constraints and abstractions under which a bike would be worse for the environment than driving. First and foremost, riding a bike relies on sustainable energy (grow, eat, repeat). Cars are still far far away from being remotely sustainable. Car vs. bike discussion may have (some) sense when it comes to commuting distances, adverse weather conditions etc.
- VLM 13y ago
  All purchased food relies on unsustainable energy sources and nearly all food relies on unsustainable fertilization and other petroleum derived products. I have a super minimalistic garden and grow some of my own salad vegetables in the summer but I'm under no illusions and 99% of my food calories come indirectly from crude oil and natgas. My car doesn't burn biodiesel and isn't made of soy. The store is illuminated and HVAC by natgas and coal. The delivery truck from the warehouse doesn't burn biodiesel and isn't made of soy. The warehouse burns lots of coal for its HVAC and lights. The trucks delivering to the warehouse don't run on biodiesel and aren't made of soy. Assuming produce and not "processed food-like substances" the farm uses diesel to run the tractor and other gear, some coal powered electricity in the greenhouse, fertilizers made of phosphates dug out of the ground (what to do when they run out?) and nitrates made by the haber process outta lots of natgas. Also there may or may not be herbicides / pesticides / fertilizers made out of crude oil. If your food is cheaper per "gallon" than diesel, its at least theoretically possible to make it with biodiesel and be net energy positive. If it takes 20 gallons of diesel equivalent environmental damage to make a gallon of walnut oil, then if you poured walnut oil into a biodiesel tank the system would rapidly run dry and halt. Computer science types have a stereotype where the "halting problem" can't be solved for them so it can't be solved anywhere, although energy calculations are actually pretty simple (yes yes I know totally different type of halting its a bad joke). If (Energy Returned) is less than (Energy Invested) then the only way to keep pumping food out is to burn crude oil to make up the difference. Depending what axe you have to grind, EROEI of food varies from 0.1 to 1. The truth is probably within that range, perhaps 0.3. A pound of fat (animal hydrocarbon, basically) is worth 3500 or so calories so the environment is better off if you burn two pounds of gasoline than if you eat a pound of food (aka equivalent of 3 pounds of diesel burned to make it) and bike the same distance.