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For reference, the 15-minute law mentioned in the article is a restriction that companies like Uber have to force their customers to wait at least 15 minutes be

by tikhonj 13y ago

For reference, the 15-minute law mentioned in the article is a restriction that companies like Uber have to force their customers to wait at least 15 minutes before getting a ride. Given that the average black car gets to a customer in 7 minutes, this is a serious handicap. [1] This sort of law feels really backwards. It degrades the service of companies like Uber and imposes negative externalities on society--more cars pointlessly idling and waiting around, more traffic congestion and so on. The idea behind a market is to improve quality; trying to "improve" the market by arbitrarily degrading the quality of some competitors is exactly counter-productive. Given that the taxis have gotten this absurdly protectionist restriction in place, it's even harder to empathize with their protest. Actually getting violent is even worse. Of course, it's also important to remember that this is likely an extreme action by a single individual and does not represent taxi drivers as a group. In fact, there is no immediate link between the attack and taxis, although it seems extremely likely. That said, even ignoring the violence, I do not really sympathize with the taxi protests here. [1]: http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/28/uber-lecab-and-others-now-have-to-wait-15-minutes-before-picking-you-up-in-france/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/28/uber-lecab-and-others-now-h...

pervycreeper 13y ago
> It degrades the service of companies like Uber and imposes negative externalities on society What are you complaining about? This is just the french way.
- noja 13y ago
  Is the "American way" (the NYC medallion system) better? These generalisations don't help.
  - rdl 13y ago
    The London way (a difficult exam, probably far beyond what's actually needed for the job, as the main way to reduce supply) is probably the best way to manage supply. Most American taxi markets aren't restricted like NYC (or a few other big cities), and even those that are are not anywhere near as expensive. NYC and SF seem like the big outliers for restrictive permits in the US.
    - DanBC 13y ago
      The difficult exam is only needed for drivers who want to pick up people without a prior booking. It's much easier to be a taxi driver if you only accept telephone booking rides.
    - gaius 13y ago
      You know there were black cabs before satnav, right?
      - rdl 13y ago
        Even without satnav, you can be a passable taxi driver in London without knowing every single street.
        neverminder 13y ago
        London is notorious for being a city with most number of streets in the world. http://www.the-london-taxi.com/london_taxi_knowledge http://www.the-london-taxi.com/london_taxi_knowledge
userbinator 13y ago
> For reference, the 15-minute law mentioned in the article is a restriction that companies like Uber have to force their customers to wait at least 15 minutes This law is disadvantageous both for the customer and the driver, so just how difficult would it be to even enforce?
- cdavid 13y ago
  It is quite difficult actually, if only for political reasons. Taxi drivers have a high level of nuisance, which gives them bargaining power. It would be suicidal for the gvt/institutions to go directly against them. While violence is unacceptable (and hopefully the perpetrators will be found and tried), one also needs to realize that taxi drivers had to pay a high price to become taxi drivers. The current price for a license is 250000 euros in Paris (according to http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_parisiens http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_parisiens). Anybody in that situation would be pissed, and a fairer solution would most likely involve a plan to rebuy licenses.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  > This law is disadvantageous both for the customer and the driver, so just how difficult would it be to even enforce? Trivially easy. Just spend a few days every month booking rides, if they show up too early then they get fined or shut-down.
  - userbinator 13y ago
    What I was really getting at was more like who would be the one wanting to enforce this; customers and drivers alike wouldn't want to follow it.
    - InclinedPlane 13y ago
      The existing taxi companies, of course. If you have to wait 15 minutes for a car to arrive when you use an app or place a call then you are vastly more likely to try to hail a cab on the street.
nona 13y ago
It's not exactly a level playing field, with a limited number of taxi licenses being bought and sold on the open market for around 200k-250k. No surprise they're not happy and want to recoup their investment… The Rude Baguette did a nice article on how the Paris taxi market works, which explains a lot: http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-taxi-market-past-present-future/ http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-...
- kubiiii 13y ago
  Thank you for the link. The licence value is the key reason why taxis are pissed. It is also the reason why they organised taxis scarcity, keeping the licence price up, and the service terrible. They kind of created the ideal conditions for alternative solutions developpment. But a proper way of recouping their investment should be provided to them rather than articially distinguishing the Uber businesses and taxis businesses. Its basically the same.
ig1 13y ago
How would you feel if you paid quarter of a million euros for your taxi licence (maybe by mortgaging your property or going heavily into debt) only to be undercut by illegal taxi drivers who didn't bother to get licensed and didn't follow regulations ? Obviously it's not an excuse for violence, but it's important to remember there are always multiple sides to any argument.
- icebraining 13y ago
  I'd be pretty pissed at the guys who forced me to pay a quarter of a million euros.
- trigger 13y ago
  This is exactly what happened here in Ireland in 2000. The market was deregulated overnight and there was a flood of new taxis on the roads. Needless to say existing taxi drivers weren't very happy as a lot of them had paid around €100,000 for their license. They were effectively worthless after deregulation. All this was great news for consumers of course. Before deregulation it was practically impossible to get a taxi in Dublin on weekend nights. I can recall queuing for hours in the cold and wet for the privilege of being dropped home. The taxi drivers mightn't like deregulation but you can't hold the general public to ransom by operating a closed market. Of course the government should have handled the whole thing better by doing some sort of deal with the drivers who'd paid so much for licences thinking it was a long term investment.
- InclinedPlane 13y ago
  Because the system is broken and people are heavily invested in the current system and it being broken... What? What's the logical conclusion to that sentence in your mind? Should we keep on running the war on drugs because there are so many people who make a living off of it? Should we maintain copyright law the way it is today because companies have invested so heavily in it? Should we maintain software patent law the way it is because some folks have spent billions acquiring patent portfolios?
  - EliAndrewC 13y ago
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
So in France its become a rule that violence is the way to counter unpopular laws? Recently a negotiator was kidnapped by workers, which is sad enough, but apparently its become the norm to kidnap negotiators as a regular tactic. Has all rule of law broken down in France? I sounds like some Mad Max free-for-all there.
- negrit 13y ago
  Not trying to advocate violence here, but few broken windows works better than wearing black armband. This is how it seems to work in this country. Nobody will ever pay attention to some quiet, peaceful and respectful protesters, but as soon as things are getting dirty, then medias are all in and people/politics are actually talking/thinking about it. This is indeed unfortunate, but as a matter of fact it works
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Yes violence works. I understand that.

by tikhonj 13y ago

pervycreeper 13y ago

> It degrades the service of companies like Uber and imposes negative externalities on society What are you complaining about? This is just the french way.

noja 13y ago
Is the "American way" (the NYC medallion system) better? These generalisations don't help.
- rdl 13y ago
  The London way (a difficult exam, probably far beyond what's actually needed for the job, as the main way to reduce supply) is probably the best way to manage supply. Most American taxi markets aren't restricted like NYC (or a few other big cities), and even those that are are not anywhere near as expensive. NYC and SF seem like the big outliers for restrictive permits in the US.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    The difficult exam is only needed for drivers who want to pick up people without a prior booking. It's much easier to be a taxi driver if you only accept telephone booking rides.
  - gaius 13y ago
    You know there were black cabs before satnav, right?
    - rdl 13y ago
      Even without satnav, you can be a passable taxi driver in London without knowing every single street.
      - neverminder 13y ago
        London is notorious for being a city with most number of streets in the world. http://www.the-london-taxi.com/london_taxi_knowledge http://www.the-london-taxi.com/london_taxi_knowledge

userbinator 13y ago

> For reference, the 15-minute law mentioned in the article is a restriction that companies like Uber have to force their customers to wait at least 15 minutes This law is disadvantageous both for the customer and the driver, so just how difficult would it be to even enforce?

cdavid 13y ago
It is quite difficult actually, if only for political reasons. Taxi drivers have a high level of nuisance, which gives them bargaining power. It would be suicidal for the gvt/institutions to go directly against them. While violence is unacceptable (and hopefully the perpetrators will be found and tried), one also needs to realize that taxi drivers had to pay a high price to become taxi drivers. The current price for a license is 250000 euros in Paris (according to http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_parisiens http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis_parisiens). Anybody in that situation would be pissed, and a fairer solution would most likely involve a plan to rebuy licenses.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
> This law is disadvantageous both for the customer and the driver, so just how difficult would it be to even enforce? Trivially easy. Just spend a few days every month booking rides, if they show up too early then they get fined or shut-down.
- userbinator 13y ago
  What I was really getting at was more like who would be the one wanting to enforce this; customers and drivers alike wouldn't want to follow it.
  - InclinedPlane 13y ago
    The existing taxi companies, of course. If you have to wait 15 minutes for a car to arrive when you use an app or place a call then you are vastly more likely to try to hail a cab on the street.

nona 13y ago

It's not exactly a level playing field, with a limited number of taxi licenses being bought and sold on the open market for around 200k-250k. No surprise they're not happy and want to recoup their investment… The Rude Baguette did a nice article on how the Paris taxi market works, which explains a lot: http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-taxi-market-past-present-future/ http://www.rudebaguette.com/2013/08/07/anatomy-of-the-paris-...

kubiiii 13y ago
Thank you for the link. The licence value is the key reason why taxis are pissed. It is also the reason why they organised taxis scarcity, keeping the licence price up, and the service terrible. They kind of created the ideal conditions for alternative solutions developpment. But a proper way of recouping their investment should be provided to them rather than articially distinguishing the Uber businesses and taxis businesses. Its basically the same.

ig1 13y ago

How would you feel if you paid quarter of a million euros for your taxi licence (maybe by mortgaging your property or going heavily into debt) only to be undercut by illegal taxi drivers who didn't bother to get licensed and didn't follow regulations ? Obviously it's not an excuse for violence, but it's important to remember there are always multiple sides to any argument.

icebraining 13y ago
I'd be pretty pissed at the guys who forced me to pay a quarter of a million euros.
trigger 13y ago
This is exactly what happened here in Ireland in 2000. The market was deregulated overnight and there was a flood of new taxis on the roads. Needless to say existing taxi drivers weren't very happy as a lot of them had paid around €100,000 for their license. They were effectively worthless after deregulation. All this was great news for consumers of course. Before deregulation it was practically impossible to get a taxi in Dublin on weekend nights. I can recall queuing for hours in the cold and wet for the privilege of being dropped home. The taxi drivers mightn't like deregulation but you can't hold the general public to ransom by operating a closed market. Of course the government should have handled the whole thing better by doing some sort of deal with the drivers who'd paid so much for licences thinking it was a long term investment.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Because the system is broken and people are heavily invested in the current system and it being broken... What? What's the logical conclusion to that sentence in your mind? Should we keep on running the war on drugs because there are so many people who make a living off of it? Should we maintain copyright law the way it is today because companies have invested so heavily in it? Should we maintain software patent law the way it is because some folks have spent billions acquiring patent portfolios?
- EliAndrewC 13y ago

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

So in France its become a rule that violence is the way to counter unpopular laws? Recently a negotiator was kidnapped by workers, which is sad enough, but apparently its become the norm to kidnap negotiators as a regular tactic. Has all rule of law broken down in France? I sounds like some Mad Max free-for-all there.

negrit 13y ago
Not trying to advocate violence here, but few broken windows works better than wearing black armband. This is how it seems to work in this country. Nobody will ever pay attention to some quiet, peaceful and respectful protesters, but as soon as things are getting dirty, then medias are all in and people/politics are actually talking/thinking about it. This is indeed unfortunate, but as a matter of fact it works
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Yes violence works. I understand that.