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Mapping poverty is an inherently challenging activity. There are a huge number of edge cases where the calculations start to make things misleading. The poverty

by jchung 13y ago

Mapping poverty is an inherently challenging activity. There are a huge number of edge cases where the calculations start to make things misleading. The poverty line itself is a point of significant contention among nonprofits and foundations. There's a federal line, but the higher cost of living in cities often means that you can live at 110% of the poverty line and be truly struggling to get by. There are efforts to calculate state-level or even city-level poverty lines. Not sure this map adjusts for that. However, I don't want to put this map down simply because it tries to simplify something very complicated. I do think there are a few very valuable messages here. Particularly for folks who live in a bit of a bubble, and may not realize how close they live to people living in poverty.

bane 13y ago
> the higher cost of living in cities often means that you can live at 110% of the poverty line and be truly struggling to get by. I think it's important to make a distinction between "poor" and "poverty" though. Struggling to get by infers that they're getting by and could be called "poor". Poverty, I think, implies they're not getting by in the local socio-economic area they're in. It's easy to move between categories. Poverty vs. poor could be as much as $20 to make rent this month. Having grown up pretty poor, and having relatives shift in and out of poverty (American style), there's a qualitative difference I think.
- gizmo686 13y ago
  What does it mean to be "not getting by" vs "getting by".
  - sounds 13y ago
    I'll list a few examples, but please remember each person's situation is unique and "not getting by" could just mean facing a mental health issue (bipolar comes to mind). I guess what I'm saying is, even this attempt to enumerate some financial examples clearly misses the bigger picture of physical health (and associated costs), mental health (and associated costs), social problems, etc. 1. Guy just got fired from his job because he told his boss to stop altering time sheets, removing hours worked thus lower wages. When he went to the Dept of Labor they "couldn't help him" because he hadn't come to them first before getting fired. So he got a lawyer but that just burned through his cash reserve; when the cash ran out the lawyer walked out. He's now living out of his car even though he got another job. He's probably blacklisted by a lot of the jobs he's used to. When his current job pays him in 2 weeks, he can make a deposit on a place and maybe start renting again. In the meantime he struggles to find a place to shower each day. 2. Girl finally emancipated herself from a bad adoptive parent situation. She's 16 and emotionally mature enough to live on her own. She's currently at a women's shelter but they are working with her to secure an apartment. Apartment managers refuse to consider her because "she doesn't have a parent's signature." She has a job at a pizza place but keeps getting turned down for better paying jobs because she's still in high school. How is she going to make rent for the next 2 years? Making pizzas? 3. Guy splitting rent with some friends who get into drugs and stop paying him. Since the apartment is technically in his name, he gets thrown in county jail for a few days when the cops bust the drug thing. He is clean so they let him go but the apartment insists he move out, like, yesterday. So technically he's homeless even though he has a stable job. When he goes to get another apartment they all want to know where he has stayed for the last 2 years (standard apartment procedure) and when they talk to the apartments where he was, they always get enough of an earful from the previous manager that they decide he's not worth it. Financially he's making it through all this but imagine if he were just barely making it... could be enough to push him out onto the street. Sleeping in your car is particularly bad because a lot of local law enforcement will ticket you or throw you in jail for a night. They really don't want you sleeping in your car around here. The risk is that they might impound your car after enough tickets. Now you're really "not getting by."
  - bane 13y ago
    Are you able to earn enough to cover your basic life expenses, even if nothing is left over at the end of the month? Is it a bare subsistence living? Would a single unexpected emergency that cost you even a tiny amount of money push you over the edge so you could no longer cover your basic expenses? Or are you on a slow downward spiral or perpetual small shortfalls in nearly every basic expense area? To the point that you can't even cover a bare subsistence living? I think that's probably how I'd notionally describe the difference between poor and poverty.

by jchung 13y ago

bane 13y ago

> the higher cost of living in cities often means that you can live at 110% of the poverty line and be truly struggling to get by. I think it's important to make a distinction between "poor" and "poverty" though. Struggling to get by infers that they're getting by and could be called "poor". Poverty, I think, implies they're not getting by in the local socio-economic area they're in. It's easy to move between categories. Poverty vs. poor could be as much as $20 to make rent this month. Having grown up pretty poor, and having relatives shift in and out of poverty (American style), there's a qualitative difference I think.

gizmo686 13y ago
What does it mean to be "not getting by" vs "getting by".
- sounds 13y ago
  I'll list a few examples, but please remember each person's situation is unique and "not getting by" could just mean facing a mental health issue (bipolar comes to mind). I guess what I'm saying is, even this attempt to enumerate some financial examples clearly misses the bigger picture of physical health (and associated costs), mental health (and associated costs), social problems, etc. 1. Guy just got fired from his job because he told his boss to stop altering time sheets, removing hours worked thus lower wages. When he went to the Dept of Labor they "couldn't help him" because he hadn't come to them first before getting fired. So he got a lawyer but that just burned through his cash reserve; when the cash ran out the lawyer walked out. He's now living out of his car even though he got another job. He's probably blacklisted by a lot of the jobs he's used to. When his current job pays him in 2 weeks, he can make a deposit on a place and maybe start renting again. In the meantime he struggles to find a place to shower each day. 2. Girl finally emancipated herself from a bad adoptive parent situation. She's 16 and emotionally mature enough to live on her own. She's currently at a women's shelter but they are working with her to secure an apartment. Apartment managers refuse to consider her because "she doesn't have a parent's signature." She has a job at a pizza place but keeps getting turned down for better paying jobs because she's still in high school. How is she going to make rent for the next 2 years? Making pizzas? 3. Guy splitting rent with some friends who get into drugs and stop paying him. Since the apartment is technically in his name, he gets thrown in county jail for a few days when the cops bust the drug thing. He is clean so they let him go but the apartment insists he move out, like, yesterday. So technically he's homeless even though he has a stable job. When he goes to get another apartment they all want to know where he has stayed for the last 2 years (standard apartment procedure) and when they talk to the apartments where he was, they always get enough of an earful from the previous manager that they decide he's not worth it. Financially he's making it through all this but imagine if he were just barely making it... could be enough to push him out onto the street. Sleeping in your car is particularly bad because a lot of local law enforcement will ticket you or throw you in jail for a night. They really don't want you sleeping in your car around here. The risk is that they might impound your car after enough tickets. Now you're really "not getting by."
- bane 13y ago
  Are you able to earn enough to cover your basic life expenses, even if nothing is left over at the end of the month? Is it a bare subsistence living? Would a single unexpected emergency that cost you even a tiny amount of money push you over the edge so you could no longer cover your basic expenses? Or are you on a slow downward spiral or perpetual small shortfalls in nearly every basic expense area? To the point that you can't even cover a bare subsistence living? I think that's probably how I'd notionally describe the difference between poor and poverty.