4 ms·

Evolution is actually quite horrible at engineering. Since it can only hill-climb, we end up with ridiculous designs stuck in local maxima. Evolution made video

by ggreer 13y ago

Evolution is actually quite horrible at engineering. Since it can only hill-climb, we end up with ridiculous designs stuck in local maxima. Evolution made video cameras out of jelly, a breathing tube that must be crammed full of solid foods every few hours, and (as Neil deGrasse Tyson put so delicately) a sewage plant next to an amusement park. No organism ever evolved radio communication, or the ability to transmit nerve signals faster than 0.000001c. Still, why 8 hours of sleep instead of 2? The best explanation I've heard is famine resistance. Sleep conserves energy; until recently, humans were calorie-limited. Also, there's probably an advantage to remaining quiet and still in the dark, when human eyesight is at its worst and predators roam.

sampo 13y ago
> there's probably an advantage to remaining quiet and still in the dark, when human eyesight is at its worst and predators roam. That's a bit too anthropocentric view. Also other animals sleep, even nocturnal animals.
- ars 13y ago
  Worms sleep too - and they don't have brains that need cleaning.
  - sampo 13y ago
    Wikipedia suggests that also in nematodes, "sleep is necessary for changes in the neural system". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_%28non-human%29#Invertebrates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_%28non-human%29#Invertebr...
count 13y ago
Why take human engineering out of 'evolution'? Biological evolution developed our brain and manipulative appendages, which were then used to make better video, comms, etc. Humans, and everything we do, are still 'naturally evolved', by definition.
- ggreer 13y ago
  "How many legs does a dog have, if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." — Abraham Lincoln
  - staticshock 13y ago
    Side note: according to some sleuthing by the snopes crowd[1], this quote predates Lincoln's presidency by several decades, with the first recorded usage being somewhere around 1834. He may have used the anecdote himself, but it seems to have been a popular saying in the abolitionist movement in general. [1] http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/32/t/000450.html http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_t...
- Glide 13y ago
  Mostly because... I have no idea why. I mean we've discovered something very close to spears being used by people since ... well forever in terms of modern history. And hunting being very important to the needs of certain homo sapiens sapiens populations would very much agree with your assessment. One advantage that we hold over primates is our ability to throw. Combine that with making spears and our ancestors quickly becoming apex predators makes sense.
mattfenwick 13y ago
What about robustness, adaptability, and learning? Those are qualities of natural life that I find to be extremely well-engineered, and sadly lacking from most (all?) man-made engineering solutions.
- ggreer 13y ago
  Your brain has 200 billion-ish neurons with hundreds of trillions of connections between them. Right now, reading these words, your visual cortex is doing edge detection and motion filtering. That requires FFTs and other complex computations. Quick! What's 392 * 7374? 99.9% of people on the planet need pen and paper to figure out the answer. Our oh-so-adaptable brains can't seem to make a few neurons available for simple math. Heck, our brains can't store more than 7-9 items in working memory. We're mostly unaware of our limitations because everyone else is similarly hobbled. But when we figure out a way to improve human minds, it will be a bigger game changer than anything that has come before.
  - mattfenwick 13y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't follow your point. I was responding to "Evolution is actually quite horrible at engineering. Since it can only hill-climb, we end up with ridiculous designs stuck in local maxima". In my opinion, several qualities of natural life compare favorably with man-made engineering (which is the only other type of engineering I can think of for the purpose of comparison), therefore I disagree that "evolution is actually quite horrible at engineering", at least without some kind of qualification. I don't understand the purpose of your 1st or 4th paragraphs; I understand the 2nd and 3rd as saying something like "human brains are limited", but don't see how it connects to my response. Could you clarify for me? Sorry that I didn't follow and thanks.
  - Glide 13y ago
    The reason why people can't do that calculation in their heads is because of our reliance on computers and calculators. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguMYWW8EAU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguMYWW8EAU In fact you can pull up articles with a quick search about how people can attain pretty good mental math capabilities through training. It's hard work, but it's proof of the adaptability of the human mind. I don't know I already thought the computer was the first "lever" for the mind that we've had. The computer has been pretty game changing for society, has it not?
VLM 13y ago
Forcing a requirement to think about providing a safe place to sleep results in at least some thinking about safe places to be awake in, and think about defenseless youth in general. If you have to think about finding a safe place to sleep every day, occasionally thinking about a safe place to give birth shouldn't be as challenging. Sounds convenient for long life and successful reproduction. Also you can tell who hasn't had kids... without kids sleeping (and sleeping more than the parents) the older adults and teens in the tribe would go bonkers and be unable to accomplish anything. Best thing that ever happened to a newborn was sleeping alot so mom can get some food in her, etc. I guess as you get older you could ramp it down and maybe teens could simply stop sleeping, this is probably a secondary effect at most.
snambi 13y ago
still nature's creations are 1000s of times better than any created by man. what is the best of what we created? iphone, pc, car?

by ggreer 13y ago

sampo 13y ago

> there's probably an advantage to remaining quiet and still in the dark, when human eyesight is at its worst and predators roam. That's a bit too anthropocentric view. Also other animals sleep, even nocturnal animals.

ars 13y ago
Worms sleep too - and they don't have brains that need cleaning.
- sampo 13y ago
  Wikipedia suggests that also in nematodes, "sleep is necessary for changes in the neural system". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_%28non-human%29#Invertebrates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_%28non-human%29#Invertebr...

count 13y ago

Why take human engineering out of 'evolution'? Biological evolution developed our brain and manipulative appendages, which were then used to make better video, comms, etc. Humans, and everything we do, are still 'naturally evolved', by definition.

ggreer 13y ago
"How many legs does a dog have, if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg." — Abraham Lincoln
- staticshock 13y ago
  Side note: according to some sleuthing by the snopes crowd[1], this quote predates Lincoln's presidency by several decades, with the first recorded usage being somewhere around 1834. He may have used the anecdote himself, but it seems to have been a popular saying in the abolitionist movement in general. [1] http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/32/t/000450.html http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_t...
Glide 13y ago
Mostly because... I have no idea why. I mean we've discovered something very close to spears being used by people since ... well forever in terms of modern history. And hunting being very important to the needs of certain homo sapiens sapiens populations would very much agree with your assessment. One advantage that we hold over primates is our ability to throw. Combine that with making spears and our ancestors quickly becoming apex predators makes sense.

mattfenwick 13y ago

What about robustness, adaptability, and learning? Those are qualities of natural life that I find to be extremely well-engineered, and sadly lacking from most (all?) man-made engineering solutions.

ggreer 13y ago
Your brain has 200 billion-ish neurons with hundreds of trillions of connections between them. Right now, reading these words, your visual cortex is doing edge detection and motion filtering. That requires FFTs and other complex computations. Quick! What's 392 * 7374? 99.9% of people on the planet need pen and paper to figure out the answer. Our oh-so-adaptable brains can't seem to make a few neurons available for simple math. Heck, our brains can't store more than 7-9 items in working memory. We're mostly unaware of our limitations because everyone else is similarly hobbled. But when we figure out a way to improve human minds, it will be a bigger game changer than anything that has come before.
- mattfenwick 13y ago
  I'm sorry, I don't follow your point. I was responding to "Evolution is actually quite horrible at engineering. Since it can only hill-climb, we end up with ridiculous designs stuck in local maxima". In my opinion, several qualities of natural life compare favorably with man-made engineering (which is the only other type of engineering I can think of for the purpose of comparison), therefore I disagree that "evolution is actually quite horrible at engineering", at least without some kind of qualification. I don't understand the purpose of your 1st or 4th paragraphs; I understand the 2nd and 3rd as saying something like "human brains are limited", but don't see how it connects to my response. Could you clarify for me? Sorry that I didn't follow and thanks.
- Glide 13y ago
  The reason why people can't do that calculation in their heads is because of our reliance on computers and calculators. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguMYWW8EAU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xguMYWW8EAU In fact you can pull up articles with a quick search about how people can attain pretty good mental math capabilities through training. It's hard work, but it's proof of the adaptability of the human mind. I don't know I already thought the computer was the first "lever" for the mind that we've had. The computer has been pretty game changing for society, has it not?

VLM 13y ago

Forcing a requirement to think about providing a safe place to sleep results in at least some thinking about safe places to be awake in, and think about defenseless youth in general. If you have to think about finding a safe place to sleep every day, occasionally thinking about a safe place to give birth shouldn't be as challenging. Sounds convenient for long life and successful reproduction. Also you can tell who hasn't had kids... without kids sleeping (and sleeping more than the parents) the older adults and teens in the tribe would go bonkers and be unable to accomplish anything. Best thing that ever happened to a newborn was sleeping alot so mom can get some food in her, etc. I guess as you get older you could ramp it down and maybe teens could simply stop sleeping, this is probably a secondary effect at most.

snambi 13y ago

still nature's creations are 1000s of times better than any created by man. what is the best of what we created? iphone, pc, car?