5 ms·

I completely disagree. In fact I find it worse when a link opens in the same tab and then I have to navigate back and find the place that I was at .vs. having t

I completely disagree. In fact I find it worse when a link opens in the same tab and then I have to navigate back and find the place that I was at .vs. having to close a new tab I did not want. "And I think over a decade of user confusion and frustration resulting from target="_blank" backs that up." Do you have any links to to back this claim?

city41 13y ago
But you can always choose to open the link in a new window, quite trivially. Let the user decide.
SDGT 13y ago
Anecdotal evidence to combat anecdotal evidence, but where do we stop and let the user make some damn decisions? Are users really too stupid to know ctrl+click, middle click, or right click->open in new tab? Personally I side with the author, as I open just about everything with middle click, but I also have a lot of dumb users that rely on target _blank like it's the only thing preventing them from spiraling into a psychosis filled chasm of self doubt. The sheer number of people who have marveled at the idea of opening a page in a new tab when shown kind of makes me uncomfortable. I really want to fix this, and have users understand their browser more than "it makes the googles".
- elwell 13y ago
  > Are users really too stupid[...] Yes
- tannerc 13y ago
  If you commonly refer to your users/visitors as "dumb" then your problem isn't with links. Alas, it's worth considering personal bias. Simply because you understand the fundamentals of the web and how to use modern technology doesn't mean it's the norm or standard (yet). Because someone doesn't know how to "middle click" does not make them stupid.
  - SDGT 13y ago
    My qualms are with the lack of motivation to learn. I get the daily urge to look up some shortcut or random tidbit of information I didn't know about any subject, so I get rather upset when coworkers continue on their day doing the bare minimum. It takes a total of maybe 15 seconds to learn how to open a link in a tab. If that's too much effort for someone, then I seriously question what other small things that person has decided to just not learn throughout their life. edit: I should note that by "users" I mean fully grown adults working with a web browser every day as their job, not Grandma.
    - bane 13y ago
      Maybe the next thing you should take an interest in learning about is how normal non-tech folk use computers.
    - bradbatt 13y ago
      It takes a total of maybe 15 seconds to learn how to open a link in a tab. If that's too much effort for someone, then I seriously question what other small things that person has decided to just not learn throughout their life. For most of them it's not a matter of them not wanting to learn or being too lazy to learn. It's that they don't know that there is something they need to learn. They don't know that it's an option. They don't know that it's possible. They don't even know that it is something they should consider. It's simple to everyone on HN, but even simple things are not obvious to everyone that uses a computer or mobile device. One of our users just a few weeks ago did not know how to copy and paste text. Not didn't know the keyboard shortcuts…Did not know how to do it at all! Instead, the user printed out the text I had requested him to copy/paste, scanned it in, and attached the image to a reply email. You do what you know how to do.
- pyre 13y ago
  > Are users really too stupid to know ctrl+click, middle click, or right click->open in new tab? There are people that use their computer day-in and day-out that don't know about alt-tab to switch between windows... The computer doesn't come with a manual, and no one ever showed them. Not everyone that gets plopped in front of a computer explores their new environment once they have a workflow down.
  - mintplant 13y ago
    Those same people may not understand how tabs work, either. They might not realize where their previous browsing session went, or how to get back (since the back button no longer functions as expected in the new tab).
    - pyre 13y ago
      I'm not throwing in on either side of the target="_blank" debate. I'm just saying that making assumptions that surely all/most uses know how to X, usually end in disaster.
dasil003 13y ago
I have more important things to do than to attempt to put together statistical proof of this to empiricism-fetishists, but I can see in 15 years of web development that I've seen this (including in a proper usability lab with one way glass and eye-tracking, bla bla bla) create serious confusion with users vainly attempting to click back and not understanding why it doesn't work. That is for the average non-tech user. For sophisticated users (which is probably approaching a majority of the American population under 40 these days) it just makes them angry when the behavior of regular pages is hijacked to be non-standard and disrupts their chosen workflow. Are you seriously arguing that in your opinion every single link should open a new tab automatically?
- Morgawr 13y ago
  I very much doubt that the majority of the American population under 40 are "sophisticated users". And no, browsing Facebook and twitter every day does not count. Especially this day and age full of tablets, smartphones and specific apps, people are unlearning how actual Web browsing works. This said, personally I consider clicking on a link to an external resource/website to have a default behaviour of opening in a new tab. Failure of doing so counts as a usability bug to me. For same-site links then I agree, opening a new tab doesn't make sense. There's nothing more frustrating than browsing with mouse only and being forced to go back and open a link with ctrl+click or middle click(also my mouse3 button is broken, but that's my problem)
  - gibbitz 13y ago
    Can't agree more, especially when external sites history jack and require digging in history because the back button hold you on their domain. I understand that the whole thing is really a matter ofpreference and will never have a correct answer, but for me, this is the right answer.
Steko 13y ago
Who needs links when common sense suffices. On 99% of websites links do X, on the Verge and some others they do Y. It may be the case that a world where 99% of websites doing Y is slightly better than the one where 99% of websites do X. However, both of those worlds are preferable to the world where 50% of the websites do X and 50% do Y. If you live in browser doesn't handle links the way you prefer there's a way to change that for yourself.
smokermario 13y ago
I read an academic paper a while back where the authors claimed that Chinese search engines use target="blank" so all search result links open in new windows, and that's the normal state of affairs. Does anyone know if that's true? Update: found the paper - http://jeffhuang.com/Final_Branching_WSDM12.pdf http://jeffhuang.com/Final_Branching_WSDM12.pdf Here's the quote: Users in the Chinese market nearly always branch [what the authors call opening links in new windows], a behavior forced by their search engines' default settings. Some people speculate [footnote for http://www.quora.com/China/Why-do-most-hyperlinks- http://www.quora.com/China/Why-do-most-hyperlinks- on-Chinese-websites-open-a-new-window-tab] that this default started because Internet access is slower in China and so branching enables Web pages to load in the background. Others believe default branching is economically motivated as it allows a search engine to keep users on its site longer. However, a qualitative study of how Chinese users perceive branching versus backtracking would be interesting since their default action is opposite of that for the American and European users, who have been previously studied.
gpvos 13y ago
The main point, as far as I'm concerned, is that if a site has standard links and I want to open a page in a new tab, I can do that. But if a site opens pages in a new tab, I cannot suppress that. (Yeah, there's probably an extension for that, but that's not the point.) You are taking away choice. It would be nice if browsers would indicate whether a link opened a new tab or not. That would also make me less hesitant to open a link to a help or documentation page while I'm in the middle of a transaction, as TFA mentions.
- jaredsohn 13y ago
  Beyond extensions, Firefox has a setting that can force links to always open in the same tab: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.link.open_newwindow http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.link.open_newwindow
zellyn 13y ago
Then I would expect that you of all people would want to make the change at the browser level, not on a site-by-site basis.
bane 13y ago
In my mind I've mapped clicking my mousewheel with "opening links", which in Windows opens in a new tab. I do this at least 75% of the time when I click a link. But I also like having the option to just normal left mouse click and open in the same tab as sometimes that's the best thing to do. I hate it when either of these are overridden.
jordanroher 13y ago
Sure do! This has been an issue in web design since 1999. Usability studies back this up. Open New Windows for PDF and other Non-Web Documents (Jakob Nielsen, 2005) [0] The Top 10 Web Design Mistakes of 1999 (Jakob Nielsen, 1999) [1] Top 10 Mistakes in Web Design (Jakob Neilsen, 2011) [2] We gain nothing by "keeping the user on our site." The user doesn't care, to them it's all just content they want to look at. If they want to come back to our site they can use the back button, the most popular feature on a browser[3]. If we open new windows we are: littering the user's screen; breaking their chain of navigation; and if they're on a mobile device, consuming extra RAM and causing other windows to disappear prematurely. [0] http://www.nngroup.com/articles/open-new-windows-for-pdfs/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/open-new-windows-for-pdfs/ [1] http://www.nngroup.com/articles/the-top-ten-web-design-mistakes-of-1999/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/the-top-ten-web-design-mista... [2] http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-mistakes-web-design/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-mistakes-web-design/ [3] http://www.useit.com/articles/browser-and-gui-chrome/ http://www.useit.com/articles/browser-and-gui-chrome/
- pyduan 13y ago
  Are there any more recent studies with actual numbers and not just some vague talk about increased cognitive load (whatever this means)? Most I found seem to refer to the same 15 year old NN/g research report. Since then a lot has changed, including the spread of multi-tabbed browsing (which one could imagine would have a huge impact on this issue) and drastic changes in the way web applications are designed. Is the "back" feature even still the most popular feature on a browser? While this claim would have been indisputable a few years ago, I seem to almost never use it these days unless I accidentally clicked on the wrong link. At least in my case, the evolutions I mentioned have changed the way I use my browser quite a lot. Less anecdotically, this does seem to be a more global trend since on Chrome for Android the back button has even been demoted to the "More" menu, while tab-switching has been given a more prominent spot (swipe from edge). Not saying it has now become good to open links in new windows of course, but I'd be curious to see more recent research about the topic.
  - ddebernardy 13y ago
ecesena 13y ago
At Theneeds [1] we decided to open links to news in new tabs/windows (using target="_blank"). This is mainly for 2 reasons. First, we expect our users to not necessarily be techy (in contrast to what Marco says "Most people know how to open your article’s outbound links in new tabs or windows, especially readers of a tech site"). Second, we want a consistent experience across all websites we open, and some of them forced us to open in new tabs. We usually embed news into an iframe, with a Theneeds' top bar for actions including vote, share and go back to the content stream. Unfortunately many news sites are currently preventing embedding (e.g., via the HTTP header X-Frame-Options: SAMEORIGIN). We decided to open at least them (then, as I said, all) as users were frustrated by loosing access to the content stream. [1] http://www.theneeds.com http://www.theneeds.com
- andybak 13y ago
  In my experience it's actually the opposite of what you state. Non-'techy' users understand the back button and they are completely flummoxed when a target=_blank link breaks this behaviour for them. They often don't notice the tab bar and don't realise that something unusual has happened that requires something other than their learned use of 'back'. You have to understand that you're going against the norm. If 80% of links were target=_blank then your argument would make sense but they are not so I struggle to understand your justification.
  - ecesena 13y ago
    Thanks for the feedback. This is actually the result of long thoughts and discussions, and I totally was (and, in general, am) against target=_blank. So I'm just reporting things as they are and as we decided in the team, I don't want to create a religion war :) Anyway, what made me change opinion is actually my behavior here on hn. I usually go through all the stream, select the news that I want to read and open them in new tabs. Then I start, tab by tab, to consume them. So, based on my experience, I wouldn't find too disturbing an open in new tab.
    - andybak 13y ago
      That's exactly what I do too but I try not to design UX for myself. :-)
nnnnni 13y ago
Yeah, I love target="_blank" and use it often.
teaneedz 13y ago
I also generally dislike opening links in the same window. I prefer a new tab, navigate around from there, click back if necessary. When I can't go back anymore, my session is over for that line of thought and I close the tab. target="_blank" is a matter of convenience for me and I respect sites that use it - especially if the link is outbound.

city41 13y ago

But you can always choose to open the link in a new window, quite trivially. Let the user decide.

SDGT 13y ago

Anecdotal evidence to combat anecdotal evidence, but where do we stop and let the user make some damn decisions? Are users really too stupid to know ctrl+click, middle click, or right click->open in new tab? Personally I side with the author, as I open just about everything with middle click, but I also have a lot of dumb users that rely on target _blank like it's the only thing preventing them from spiraling into a psychosis filled chasm of self doubt. The sheer number of people who have marveled at the idea of opening a page in a new tab when shown kind of makes me uncomfortable. I really want to fix this, and have users understand their browser more than "it makes the googles".

elwell 13y ago
> Are users really too stupid[...] Yes
tannerc 13y ago
If you commonly refer to your users/visitors as "dumb" then your problem isn't with links. Alas, it's worth considering personal bias. Simply because you understand the fundamentals of the web and how to use modern technology doesn't mean it's the norm or standard (yet). Because someone doesn't know how to "middle click" does not make them stupid.
- SDGT 13y ago
  My qualms are with the lack of motivation to learn. I get the daily urge to look up some shortcut or random tidbit of information I didn't know about any subject, so I get rather upset when coworkers continue on their day doing the bare minimum. It takes a total of maybe 15 seconds to learn how to open a link in a tab. If that's too much effort for someone, then I seriously question what other small things that person has decided to just not learn throughout their life. edit: I should note that by "users" I mean fully grown adults working with a web browser every day as their job, not Grandma.
  - bane 13y ago
    Maybe the next thing you should take an interest in learning about is how normal non-tech folk use computers.
  - bradbatt 13y ago
    It takes a total of maybe 15 seconds to learn how to open a link in a tab. If that's too much effort for someone, then I seriously question what other small things that person has decided to just not learn throughout their life. For most of them it's not a matter of them not wanting to learn or being too lazy to learn. It's that they don't know that there is something they need to learn. They don't know that it's an option. They don't know that it's possible. They don't even know that it is something they should consider. It's simple to everyone on HN, but even simple things are not obvious to everyone that uses a computer or mobile device. One of our users just a few weeks ago did not know how to copy and paste text. Not didn't know the keyboard shortcuts…Did not know how to do it at all! Instead, the user printed out the text I had requested him to copy/paste, scanned it in, and attached the image to a reply email. You do what you know how to do.
pyre 13y ago
> Are users really too stupid to know ctrl+click, middle click, or right click->open in new tab? There are people that use their computer day-in and day-out that don't know about alt-tab to switch between windows... The computer doesn't come with a manual, and no one ever showed them. Not everyone that gets plopped in front of a computer explores their new environment once they have a workflow down.
- mintplant 13y ago
  Those same people may not understand how tabs work, either. They might not realize where their previous browsing session went, or how to get back (since the back button no longer functions as expected in the new tab).
  - pyre 13y ago
    I'm not throwing in on either side of the target="_blank" debate. I'm just saying that making assumptions that surely all/most uses know how to X, usually end in disaster.

dasil003 13y ago

I have more important things to do than to attempt to put together statistical proof of this to empiricism-fetishists, but I can see in 15 years of web development that I've seen this (including in a proper usability lab with one way glass and eye-tracking, bla bla bla) create serious confusion with users vainly attempting to click back and not understanding why it doesn't work. That is for the average non-tech user. For sophisticated users (which is probably approaching a majority of the American population under 40 these days) it just makes them angry when the behavior of regular pages is hijacked to be non-standard and disrupts their chosen workflow. Are you seriously arguing that in your opinion every single link should open a new tab automatically?

Morgawr 13y ago
I very much doubt that the majority of the American population under 40 are "sophisticated users". And no, browsing Facebook and twitter every day does not count. Especially this day and age full of tablets, smartphones and specific apps, people are unlearning how actual Web browsing works. This said, personally I consider clicking on a link to an external resource/website to have a default behaviour of opening in a new tab. Failure of doing so counts as a usability bug to me. For same-site links then I agree, opening a new tab doesn't make sense. There's nothing more frustrating than browsing with mouse only and being forced to go back and open a link with ctrl+click or middle click(also my mouse3 button is broken, but that's my problem)
- gibbitz 13y ago
  Can't agree more, especially when external sites history jack and require digging in history because the back button hold you on their domain. I understand that the whole thing is really a matter ofpreference and will never have a correct answer, but for me, this is the right answer.

Steko 13y ago

Who needs links when common sense suffices. On 99% of websites links do X, on the Verge and some others they do Y. It may be the case that a world where 99% of websites doing Y is slightly better than the one where 99% of websites do X. However, both of those worlds are preferable to the world where 50% of the websites do X and 50% do Y. If you live in browser doesn't handle links the way you prefer there's a way to change that for yourself.

smokermario 13y ago

I read an academic paper a while back where the authors claimed that Chinese search engines use target="blank" so all search result links open in new windows, and that's the normal state of affairs. Does anyone know if that's true? Update: found the paper - http://jeffhuang.com/Final_Branching_WSDM12.pdf http://jeffhuang.com/Final_Branching_WSDM12.pdf Here's the quote: Users in the Chinese market nearly always branch [what the authors call opening links in new windows], a behavior forced by their search engines' default settings. Some people speculate [footnote for http://www.quora.com/China/Why-do-most-hyperlinks- http://www.quora.com/China/Why-do-most-hyperlinks- on-Chinese-websites-open-a-new-window-tab] that this default started because Internet access is slower in China and so branching enables Web pages to load in the background. Others believe default branching is economically motivated as it allows a search engine to keep users on its site longer. However, a qualitative study of how Chinese users perceive branching versus backtracking would be interesting since their default action is opposite of that for the American and European users, who have been previously studied.

gpvos 13y ago

The main point, as far as I'm concerned, is that if a site has standard links and I want to open a page in a new tab, I can do that. But if a site opens pages in a new tab, I cannot suppress that. (Yeah, there's probably an extension for that, but that's not the point.) You are taking away choice. It would be nice if browsers would indicate whether a link opened a new tab or not. That would also make me less hesitant to open a link to a help or documentation page while I'm in the middle of a transaction, as TFA mentions.

jaredsohn 13y ago
Beyond extensions, Firefox has a setting that can force links to always open in the same tab: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.link.open_newwindow http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.link.open_newwindow

zellyn 13y ago

Then I would expect that you of all people would want to make the change at the browser level, not on a site-by-site basis.

bane 13y ago

In my mind I've mapped clicking my mousewheel with "opening links", which in Windows opens in a new tab. I do this at least 75% of the time when I click a link. But I also like having the option to just normal left mouse click and open in the same tab as sometimes that's the best thing to do. I hate it when either of these are overridden.

jordanroher 13y ago

Sure do! This has been an issue in web design since 1999. Usability studies back this up. Open New Windows for PDF and other Non-Web Documents (Jakob Nielsen, 2005) [0] The Top 10 Web Design Mistakes of 1999 (Jakob Nielsen, 1999) [1] Top 10 Mistakes in Web Design (Jakob Neilsen, 2011) [2] We gain nothing by "keeping the user on our site." The user doesn't care, to them it's all just content they want to look at. If they want to come back to our site they can use the back button, the most popular feature on a browser[3]. If we open new windows we are: littering the user's screen; breaking their chain of navigation; and if they're on a mobile device, consuming extra RAM and causing other windows to disappear prematurely. [0] http://www.nngroup.com/articles/open-new-windows-for-pdfs/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/open-new-windows-for-pdfs/ [1] http://www.nngroup.com/articles/the-top-ten-web-design-mistakes-of-1999/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/the-top-ten-web-design-mista... [2] http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-mistakes-web-design/ http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-mistakes-web-design/ [3] http://www.useit.com/articles/browser-and-gui-chrome/ http://www.useit.com/articles/browser-and-gui-chrome/

pyduan 13y ago
Are there any more recent studies with actual numbers and not just some vague talk about increased cognitive load (whatever this means)? Most I found seem to refer to the same 15 year old NN/g research report. Since then a lot has changed, including the spread of multi-tabbed browsing (which one could imagine would have a huge impact on this issue) and drastic changes in the way web applications are designed. Is the "back" feature even still the most popular feature on a browser? While this claim would have been indisputable a few years ago, I seem to almost never use it these days unless I accidentally clicked on the wrong link. At least in my case, the evolutions I mentioned have changed the way I use my browser quite a lot. Less anecdotically, this does seem to be a more global trend since on Chrome for Android the back button has even been demoted to the "More" menu, while tab-switching has been given a more prominent spot (swipe from edge). Not saying it has now become good to open links in new windows of course, but I'd be curious to see more recent research about the topic.
- ddebernardy 13y ago

ecesena 13y ago

At Theneeds [1] we decided to open links to news in new tabs/windows (using target="_blank"). This is mainly for 2 reasons. First, we expect our users to not necessarily be techy (in contrast to what Marco says "Most people know how to open your article’s outbound links in new tabs or windows, especially readers of a tech site"). Second, we want a consistent experience across all websites we open, and some of them forced us to open in new tabs. We usually embed news into an iframe, with a Theneeds' top bar for actions including vote, share and go back to the content stream. Unfortunately many news sites are currently preventing embedding (e.g., via the HTTP header X-Frame-Options: SAMEORIGIN). We decided to open at least them (then, as I said, all) as users were frustrated by loosing access to the content stream. [1] http://www.theneeds.com http://www.theneeds.com

andybak 13y ago
In my experience it's actually the opposite of what you state. Non-'techy' users understand the back button and they are completely flummoxed when a target=_blank link breaks this behaviour for them. They often don't notice the tab bar and don't realise that something unusual has happened that requires something other than their learned use of 'back'. You have to understand that you're going against the norm. If 80% of links were target=_blank then your argument would make sense but they are not so I struggle to understand your justification.
- ecesena 13y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. This is actually the result of long thoughts and discussions, and I totally was (and, in general, am) against target=_blank. So I'm just reporting things as they are and as we decided in the team, I don't want to create a religion war :) Anyway, what made me change opinion is actually my behavior here on hn. I usually go through all the stream, select the news that I want to read and open them in new tabs. Then I start, tab by tab, to consume them. So, based on my experience, I wouldn't find too disturbing an open in new tab.
  - andybak 13y ago
    That's exactly what I do too but I try not to design UX for myself. :-)

nnnnni 13y ago

Yeah, I love target="_blank" and use it often.

teaneedz 13y ago

I also generally dislike opening links in the same window. I prefer a new tab, navigate around from there, click back if necessary. When I can't go back anymore, my session is over for that line of thought and I close the tab. target="_blank" is a matter of convenience for me and I respect sites that use it - especially if the link is outbound.