4 ms·

Zed should make his own BSD-style license that says you can use his software freely, as long as you send him a notarized letter stating you're using it, along w

Zed should make his own BSD-style license that says you can use his software freely, as long as you send him a notarized letter stating you're using it, along with a note on your website. I can't tell if I'm joking or not. (To be clear, I think Zed is awesome, and he has the right to use whatever license he wants. Oh, and we use Mongrel).

thras 17y ago
What has Zed gotten out of your Mongrel use? And what have you gotten from it, financially?
- tjogin 17y ago
  What makes Zed so special that he should "get something out of" his freely released software — while the developers of all the other parts of the system that are required for everything to work, don't? A list of all the developers whose free software contributions are necessary for a website to be used would not be short. It would be absolutely ginormous.
  - thras 17y ago
    Zed's not special. People who write code should be rewarded for their work: "the labourer is worthy of his hire," after all. This is why BSD-style licenses in a world where multimillion-dollar companies make a killing off of the code you write don't make sense for the individual developer -- especially when you're a star contributor.
    - Tichy 17y ago
      Not everybody who uses Mongrel is a multimillion-dollar company. Maybe if it wasn't free, nobody would be using Rails and Mongrel - everybody would be on C# and Mono. There is always competition, so "should be rewarded" is really determined by the market. You can't just work on anything and then demand money for it. Mongrel that costs money would be a different product from Mongrel that is free.
      - omouse 17y ago
        Not everybody who uses Mongrel is a multimillion-dollar company. Yet they can afford to hire employees who know how to deploy Mongrel and Rails. Programmers and sys-admins aren't cheap, neither are executives, marketers, salespeople, etc. Even if you're running a tiny Web startup, you should be able to afford small donations. edit: You can treat the donation as a "license fee" if that makes the accounting easier to deal with
- gfunk911 17y ago
  Zed has gotten nothing from me. I've gotten the ability to use a good web server, instead of spending time setting up or dealing with an inferior one. A license structured as "acknowledge your use or you will be sued," with penalties specified, as opposed to "please acknowledge your use" might have a different effect. I really have no idea. Kent Beck's post from last month came to mind. http://www.threeriversinstitute.org/blog/?p=231 http://www.threeriversinstitute.org/blog/?p=231
  - Periodic 17y ago
    You've done a lot to increase his reputation. Look, you just said that the web server he wrote was good enough for your production work and that you believe other web servers to be inferior. By mentioning Mongrel you increase the visibility and reputation of Mongrel, which increases his visibility and reputation. Now, when he introduces himself to someone he can say, "I wrote mongrel." And they will say, "cool!" instead of "what's that and why should I care?"
    - hboon 17y ago
      And assuming that he did, it was only after Zed Shaw wrote this post. I only found out Mongrel was written by Zed Shaw when I read his now infamous rant about Rails and its community. (I'm not that a big Rails guy, but I did use it for a project). Says something, no?
- Tichy 17y ago
  I must admit, I am not quite sure what his problem is. Surely if he would want a consulting job, he would have no problem to get one, with Mongrel as a reference? I remember he used to rant about something like not getting a job, but he can't have been serious? Maybe he is asking 1000$/hour, or his ego really makes him unemployable (which I doubt). But even back in the "big rant day" I think there was a footnote somewhere where he said he basically was fine and didn't need a job. Maybe without Mongrel, nobody would listen to his rants to begin with. (I guess he did lots of other awesome stuff, but I only know him for Mongrel).
icefox 17y ago
I released a piece of web software that had a postcard license (to use or distribute it you had to send me a postcard). I never once received a postcard even though I can easily google and find plenty of people using it. The closest I have ever gotten to something like that is when someone sent me a dvd off my amazon wish list for my netflix recommendation framework which was pretty cool.
dfranke 17y ago
Maybe he could word it like this: advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors.

thras 17y ago

What has Zed gotten out of your Mongrel use? And what have you gotten from it, financially?

tjogin 17y ago
What makes Zed so special that he should "get something out of" his freely released software — while the developers of all the other parts of the system that are required for everything to work, don't? A list of all the developers whose free software contributions are necessary for a website to be used would not be short. It would be absolutely ginormous.
- thras 17y ago
  Zed's not special. People who write code should be rewarded for their work: "the labourer is worthy of his hire," after all. This is why BSD-style licenses in a world where multimillion-dollar companies make a killing off of the code you write don't make sense for the individual developer -- especially when you're a star contributor.
  - Tichy 17y ago
    Not everybody who uses Mongrel is a multimillion-dollar company. Maybe if it wasn't free, nobody would be using Rails and Mongrel - everybody would be on C# and Mono. There is always competition, so "should be rewarded" is really determined by the market. You can't just work on anything and then demand money for it. Mongrel that costs money would be a different product from Mongrel that is free.
    - omouse 17y ago
      Not everybody who uses Mongrel is a multimillion-dollar company. Yet they can afford to hire employees who know how to deploy Mongrel and Rails. Programmers and sys-admins aren't cheap, neither are executives, marketers, salespeople, etc. Even if you're running a tiny Web startup, you should be able to afford small donations. edit: You can treat the donation as a "license fee" if that makes the accounting easier to deal with
gfunk911 17y ago
Zed has gotten nothing from me. I've gotten the ability to use a good web server, instead of spending time setting up or dealing with an inferior one. A license structured as "acknowledge your use or you will be sued," with penalties specified, as opposed to "please acknowledge your use" might have a different effect. I really have no idea. Kent Beck's post from last month came to mind. http://www.threeriversinstitute.org/blog/?p=231 http://www.threeriversinstitute.org/blog/?p=231
- Periodic 17y ago
  You've done a lot to increase his reputation. Look, you just said that the web server he wrote was good enough for your production work and that you believe other web servers to be inferior. By mentioning Mongrel you increase the visibility and reputation of Mongrel, which increases his visibility and reputation. Now, when he introduces himself to someone he can say, "I wrote mongrel." And they will say, "cool!" instead of "what's that and why should I care?"
  - hboon 17y ago
    And assuming that he did, it was only after Zed Shaw wrote this post. I only found out Mongrel was written by Zed Shaw when I read his now infamous rant about Rails and its community. (I'm not that a big Rails guy, but I did use it for a project). Says something, no?
Tichy 17y ago
I must admit, I am not quite sure what his problem is. Surely if he would want a consulting job, he would have no problem to get one, with Mongrel as a reference? I remember he used to rant about something like not getting a job, but he can't have been serious? Maybe he is asking 1000$/hour, or his ego really makes him unemployable (which I doubt). But even back in the "big rant day" I think there was a footnote somewhere where he said he basically was fine and didn't need a job. Maybe without Mongrel, nobody would listen to his rants to begin with. (I guess he did lots of other awesome stuff, but I only know him for Mongrel).

icefox 17y ago

I released a piece of web software that had a postcard license (to use or distribute it you had to send me a postcard). I never once received a postcard even though I can easily google and find plenty of people using it. The closest I have ever gotten to something like that is when someone sent me a dvd off my amazon wish list for my netflix recommendation framework which was pretty cool.

dfranke 17y ago

Maybe he could word it like this: advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors.