6 ms·

College football, at least, might as well be a minor league. The stars play for two years, abandon their degree, and join the NFL. You'd have to be very naive t

by thenmar 13y ago

College football, at least, might as well be a minor league. The stars play for two years, abandon their degree, and join the NFL. You'd have to be very naive to think that the athletes at top div 1 programs are true "student-athletes". Look at Penn State for a prime example of toxic "athletics are everything" college football culture. Look at the numerous recruitment scandals in which players or players' families were offered money or perks in exchange for matriculation. So they can't read? Play calling cards are images anyway. That's the attitude at these schools.

drusenko 13y ago
although your point may be valid in general, you're pretty wrong about penn state: http://news.psu.edu/story/293418/2013/10/30/athletics/penn-state-football-graduation-success-rate-top-10-percent-among http://news.psu.edu/story/293418/2013/10/30/athletics/penn-s...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- thenmar 13y ago
  I was actually referring to the Sandusky scandal and how Paterno knew Sandusky was sexually abusing children and let the legal process die with minimally plausibly deniable effort.
  - drusenko 13y ago
    > The stars play for two years, abandon their degree, and join the NFL. You'd have to be very naive to think that the athletes at top div 1 programs are true "student-athletes" [..] So they can't read? Play calling cards are images anyway. That's the attitude at these schools. This is what I was responding to, and at least at Penn State, it's measurably false. > I was actually referring to the Sandusky scandal and how Paterno knew Sandusky was sexually abusing children and let the legal process die with minimally plausibly deniable effort. I don't disagree with you on that point, football culture can absolutely be toxic, and Penn State is a perfect example of how it can go wrong.
  - gaadd33 13y ago
    I've been under the impression that Paterno, while he didn't continue to pursue beyond the legal minimum, did push it up to the people who were supposed to handle such things (head of security/college president) and they were the ones who actively covered it up. Is that incorrect?
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  He might have been referring to the this whole situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Sandusky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Sandusky which contains many elements of the 'athletics are everything' mindset.
mirajshah 13y ago
I agree. For those familiar with soccer in Europe, take a look at the system they have in place there. Athletes on a path to professional sports join private sports clubs early on and (1) mature athletically much faster and (2) quickly have the potential to earn money for playing. Professional sports is a legitimate career which doesn't really require a college education, so we could really learn from Europe's clean division between school and sports.
- Nux 13y ago
  I think the football players in Europe are also pretty uneducated, though not being active in a college or uni nobody really cares. We just take it for granted. My problem with football is the toxic environment that develops around it, all the abusive fans (a bunch of misogynist, homophobes, xenophobes and racist lowlifes), all the damn betting agencies - the black spot in any neighbourhood, all the scandals about bribes and such. It's a shame, because the sport itself is very nice.
  - gojomo 13y ago
    While there are plenty of toxic attitudes and behaviors in American sport as well, it seems (from a distance) that the European football system is worse. It might be that the laundering of loyalties through colleges helps the US a bit here. The 17-23 year-old athletes are inside, and must feign allegiance to, a system of more supervision and higher educational aspirations. Many fans acquire collegiate affiliations far from their home region, and the overall fan base might lean more college-educated, because of all the co-marketing during college years.
    - johnward 13y ago
      I think you basically just get the lowest common denominator when it comes to sports fans. Kind of like when you walk into any walmart in the US.
  - mcv 13y ago
    > It's a shame, because the sport itself is very nice. I think fundamentally the problem is in watching other people sport. Sport is great for people to do. As entertainment for mass consumption, it's not so great.
sentenza 13y ago
On a side note, and without wanting to complain about Penn State specifically: I spent a few weeks in State College, PA a few years ago as a student (coming from Germany) and was extremely weirded out. I felt as if I was visiting from another planet. Overall, most things I saw while in the US, I could relate to in some way (industrious New York, beggars in Philadelphia, the tourist traps of New York, the hectic fast food restaurants), but I never managed to connect to the "college town experience" even though I had something like four weeks to do so. Everything seemed to be curated, just like some footage of childhood christmas you see on television. Students and the interests of students dominated the entire experience. I felt as if I was visiting a theme park. Funnily enough, I only tangentially registered the obsession with sports that seems to be very prevalent there. What I distinctly remember is wondering, why the "Academic Bookstore" had more Sports apparel and team merchandise than books in it. It is hard to say if any meaningful insight can be gained from my personal experience there. I heared somewhere that going to college is an important way for young people in the US to escape culturally difficult surroundings (say, a radically religious community), but IMO it feels kind of sad that the college world is so separated from the rest of US culture.
adelevie 13y ago
> Look at Penn State for a prime example of toxic "athletics are everything" college football culture. > Look at the numerous recruitment scandals in which players or players' families were offered money or perks in exchange for matriculation. I graduated from Penn State in 2011--the year before the Sandusky scandal broke. It was easily the darkest time for my school, and I don't know a single person who wasn't feeling a mix of horror, shame, and disgust at what went on. While the connection between the football program and Sandusky's actions (a retired coach since 1998) leaves room for disagreement amongst reasonable people, Penn State is one of the few schools that handles student athleticism properly. Recruiting scandals, perks from boosters, and lackluster academic achievement from student athletes are problems that Penn State solves as well as any school out there. The New America Foundation ranks top-25-BCS-ranked football programs by academic achievement of their players. Anytime Penn State's football team was ranked in the top 25 in the BCS, they have also ranked highly (usually #1) in New America's "Academic Bowl".[1] I'd also like to point out the fascinating example set by John Urschel. He finished his math undergrad degree in three years with a 4.0 GPA[2]. He then finished his math masters degree the following year, again with a 4.0 GPA[3]. He has written academic research articles[4]. He writes software[5]. He teaches an undergrad math course[6]. He's also a graduating offensive lineman with a real shot at the NFL. He's weighing that prospect against the option of pursuing a Ph.D[7]. [1] http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2012/the_2012_academic_bowl_championship_series-75177 http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2012/the_2012_..., http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2009/third_annual_academic_bowl_championship_series_rankings-25250 http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2009/third_ann..., http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-watch/2008/second-annual-academic-bcs-rankings-8907 http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-watch/2008/second-a... [2] http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html [3] Id. [4] Id. [5] http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/publications.html http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/publications.html [6] http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html [7] http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/sportsman/news/20131204/john-urschel-my-sportsman/ http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/sportsman/news/20131204/joh...
johnward 13y ago
Which brings up another point. If the players are responsible for bringing in so much revenue why not just make it legal to pay them?

by thenmar 13y ago

drusenko 13y ago

although your point may be valid in general, you're pretty wrong about penn state: http://news.psu.edu/story/293418/2013/10/30/athletics/penn-state-football-graduation-success-rate-top-10-percent-among http://news.psu.edu/story/293418/2013/10/30/athletics/penn-s...

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
thenmar 13y ago
I was actually referring to the Sandusky scandal and how Paterno knew Sandusky was sexually abusing children and let the legal process die with minimally plausibly deniable effort.
- drusenko 13y ago
  > The stars play for two years, abandon their degree, and join the NFL. You'd have to be very naive to think that the athletes at top div 1 programs are true "student-athletes" [..] So they can't read? Play calling cards are images anyway. That's the attitude at these schools. This is what I was responding to, and at least at Penn State, it's measurably false. > I was actually referring to the Sandusky scandal and how Paterno knew Sandusky was sexually abusing children and let the legal process die with minimally plausibly deniable effort. I don't disagree with you on that point, football culture can absolutely be toxic, and Penn State is a perfect example of how it can go wrong.
- gaadd33 13y ago
  I've been under the impression that Paterno, while he didn't continue to pursue beyond the legal minimum, did push it up to the people who were supposed to handle such things (head of security/college president) and they were the ones who actively covered it up. Is that incorrect?
adamnemecek 13y ago
He might have been referring to the this whole situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Sandusky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Sandusky which contains many elements of the 'athletics are everything' mindset.

mirajshah 13y ago

I agree. For those familiar with soccer in Europe, take a look at the system they have in place there. Athletes on a path to professional sports join private sports clubs early on and (1) mature athletically much faster and (2) quickly have the potential to earn money for playing. Professional sports is a legitimate career which doesn't really require a college education, so we could really learn from Europe's clean division between school and sports.

Nux 13y ago
I think the football players in Europe are also pretty uneducated, though not being active in a college or uni nobody really cares. We just take it for granted. My problem with football is the toxic environment that develops around it, all the abusive fans (a bunch of misogynist, homophobes, xenophobes and racist lowlifes), all the damn betting agencies - the black spot in any neighbourhood, all the scandals about bribes and such. It's a shame, because the sport itself is very nice.
- gojomo 13y ago
  While there are plenty of toxic attitudes and behaviors in American sport as well, it seems (from a distance) that the European football system is worse. It might be that the laundering of loyalties through colleges helps the US a bit here. The 17-23 year-old athletes are inside, and must feign allegiance to, a system of more supervision and higher educational aspirations. Many fans acquire collegiate affiliations far from their home region, and the overall fan base might lean more college-educated, because of all the co-marketing during college years.
  - johnward 13y ago
    I think you basically just get the lowest common denominator when it comes to sports fans. Kind of like when you walk into any walmart in the US.
- mcv 13y ago
  > It's a shame, because the sport itself is very nice. I think fundamentally the problem is in watching other people sport. Sport is great for people to do. As entertainment for mass consumption, it's not so great.

sentenza 13y ago

On a side note, and without wanting to complain about Penn State specifically: I spent a few weeks in State College, PA a few years ago as a student (coming from Germany) and was extremely weirded out. I felt as if I was visiting from another planet. Overall, most things I saw while in the US, I could relate to in some way (industrious New York, beggars in Philadelphia, the tourist traps of New York, the hectic fast food restaurants), but I never managed to connect to the "college town experience" even though I had something like four weeks to do so. Everything seemed to be curated, just like some footage of childhood christmas you see on television. Students and the interests of students dominated the entire experience. I felt as if I was visiting a theme park. Funnily enough, I only tangentially registered the obsession with sports that seems to be very prevalent there. What I distinctly remember is wondering, why the "Academic Bookstore" had more Sports apparel and team merchandise than books in it. It is hard to say if any meaningful insight can be gained from my personal experience there. I heared somewhere that going to college is an important way for young people in the US to escape culturally difficult surroundings (say, a radically religious community), but IMO it feels kind of sad that the college world is so separated from the rest of US culture.

adelevie 13y ago

> Look at Penn State for a prime example of toxic "athletics are everything" college football culture. > Look at the numerous recruitment scandals in which players or players' families were offered money or perks in exchange for matriculation. I graduated from Penn State in 2011--the year before the Sandusky scandal broke. It was easily the darkest time for my school, and I don't know a single person who wasn't feeling a mix of horror, shame, and disgust at what went on. While the connection between the football program and Sandusky's actions (a retired coach since 1998) leaves room for disagreement amongst reasonable people, Penn State is one of the few schools that handles student athleticism properly. Recruiting scandals, perks from boosters, and lackluster academic achievement from student athletes are problems that Penn State solves as well as any school out there. The New America Foundation ranks top-25-BCS-ranked football programs by academic achievement of their players. Anytime Penn State's football team was ranked in the top 25 in the BCS, they have also ranked highly (usually #1) in New America's "Academic Bowl".[1] I'd also like to point out the fascinating example set by John Urschel. He finished his math undergrad degree in three years with a 4.0 GPA[2]. He then finished his math masters degree the following year, again with a 4.0 GPA[3]. He has written academic research articles[4]. He writes software[5]. He teaches an undergrad math course[6]. He's also a graduating offensive lineman with a real shot at the NFL. He's weighing that prospect against the option of pursuing a Ph.D[7]. [1] http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2012/the_2012_academic_bowl_championship_series-75177 http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2012/the_2012_..., http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2009/third_annual_academic_bowl_championship_series_rankings-25250 http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2009/third_ann..., http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-watch/2008/second-annual-academic-bcs-rankings-8907 http://www.newamerica.net/blog/higher-ed-watch/2008/second-a... [2] http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html [3] Id. [4] Id. [5] http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/publications.html http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/publications.html [6] http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html http://www.personal.psu.edu/jcu5018/cv.html [7] http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/sportsman/news/20131204/john-urschel-my-sportsman/ http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/sportsman/news/20131204/joh...

johnward 13y ago

Which brings up another point. If the players are responsible for bringing in so much revenue why not just make it legal to pay them?