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I think a lot of his points have merit. Meebo is a multimillion dollar company (est $200m), built mainly off libpurple. I really don't understand how the libpu

by axod 17y ago

I think a lot of his points have merit. Meebo is a multimillion dollar company (est $200m), built mainly off libpurple. I really don't understand how the libpurple developers can look at that situation and not feel hard done by. Tireless work reverse engineering protocols, which is then taken and silently used without real credit, to build multimillion dollar companies :/ I had a discussion about this with some hard core free software people, and they just said they thought libpurple would feel "proud". Well I'm sorry, but if someone was making millions from work I'd done, I wouldn't feed proud in the least. I'd feel like an idiot. (I'm not saying meebo is bad to do this at all. I'm more saying that I don't get how anyone could be motivated to work on an open source project like libpurple without some protection in place).

DannoHung 17y ago
I like how you're subtly calling the libpurple developers idiots. Some people can live with making enough money to have a pretty good life and not worrying about maximizing their revenue streams while just being happy that their work has meaning to others.
- axod 17y ago
  :) That wasn't my intention. I said I would feel like an idiot. Everyone has different viewpoints, and maybe they're happy to donate their work both to end users, and to multimillion dollar companies. The issue I see is that in the case of Meebo for example, a large part of that $200m worth undoubtedly comes from their ability to work with IM protocols - which has been largely 'donated' to them, from open source folks. (Again, I'm not saying Meebo is bad for doing this, I'd do exactly the same). Lets suppose you reverse engineered skype. Would you open source it? Or seek to make at least a little money from it. If you chose to open source, it's likely many others would make money from it instead of you.
  - DannoHung 17y ago
    How on earth would I make money from reverse engineered Skype? I can't even fathom it, the amount of work it would take TO make money from a reverse engineered protocol for communicating with Skype servers. I would not even know where to start. Here's what I think: the $200MM going to Meebo has NOTHING to do with them using the libpurple library. My reasoning: Any other web based chat company would have the same capability to exploit libpurple in their strategy. Web companies don't get funding for their technology ever. They get funding for their eyeballs and stickiness. Finally, on the subject of backhanded insults: Imagine that you were physically speaking with a group of libpurple developers and said, "Boy, if I were in your shoes, I'd feel like a bunch of idiots!"
    - axod 17y ago
      >> "the $200MM going to Meebo has NOTHING to do with them using the libpurple library." Without the libpurple library, Meebo may not have existed. Or at least would have been far far harder to execute afaics. libpurple isn't just another framework, or webserver. It's very valuable reverse engineering effort. As I said, [I] would feel like a complete idiot, if I worked my ass off to create something, only to see a company exploit+monetize it. That is not in any way the same as calling libpurple developers idiots. >> "How on earth would I make money from reverse engineered Skype? I can't even fathom it, the amount of work it would take TO make money from a reverse engineered protocol for communicating with Skype servers. I would not even know where to start." Seriously?? There are many many ways you could monetize the ability to communicate over the skype protocol. You could build cool plugin services. You could build something to make peoples voices sound like robots - disguizr.com or b2b stuff, voicemail, you could build your own skypeout competitor. etc etc etc you could build conferencing services ontop of it. Prank/joke call things. Voice recognition bot services. I'd say at least one of those would work. If you sat down and thought, I'm sure anyone here could come up with some killer applications.
      - viraptor 17y ago
        So I take it that you haven't heard of Asterisk for Skype? You can already do some of those things (at least those that don't require rewriting your CLI)
petercooper 17y ago
if someone was making millions from work I'd done, I wouldn't feed proud in the least. I'd feel like an idiot. You should probably clarify. I bet if you were getting a kickback you wouldn't care if someone else were making money. Like if you were a writer or musician and your agent were making a healthy cut, you wouldn't care if you were getting paid too, right? So it really comes down to being jealous other people figured out how to make money from your stuff when you couldn't.. right? That skill has value and perhaps they deserve to be making the cash.
tptacek 17y ago
Meebo employs libpurple developers. The libpurple team looks to have specifically OK'd Meebo's use of libpurple. I don't think they feel "hard done by".
- axod 17y ago
  Maybe it was harsh of me to use meebo/libpurple as an example here in that case. Hopefully they're getting a good chunk of the VC money etc.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - tptacek 17y ago
    Here's where you point out that you compete with Meebo.
    - axod 17y ago
      Not really, Meebo don't really have a large groupchat offering, and Mibbit don't really have much of an IM offering :) point taken though... As I said at the start, I wasn't beating on Meebo, I think they've done a great job. I'm sure there's other examples, but Meebo was the one that sprang to mind.
wmf 17y ago
Whenever I hear about some open source volunteers who "did the hard part" and then someone else came along, "slapped a GUI on it" and made big bucks, I wonder why the original developers didn't bother to do that part. Maybe the real value isn't where a lot of people think it is. After reading all these stories, I conclude that if you build only infrastructure you are going to get nothing back. Maybe the DHH approach is better: Build an app and then factor some infrastructure out of it later.

by axod 17y ago

DannoHung 17y ago

I like how you're subtly calling the libpurple developers idiots. Some people can live with making enough money to have a pretty good life and not worrying about maximizing their revenue streams while just being happy that their work has meaning to others.

axod 17y ago
:) That wasn't my intention. I said I would feel like an idiot. Everyone has different viewpoints, and maybe they're happy to donate their work both to end users, and to multimillion dollar companies. The issue I see is that in the case of Meebo for example, a large part of that $200m worth undoubtedly comes from their ability to work with IM protocols - which has been largely 'donated' to them, from open source folks. (Again, I'm not saying Meebo is bad for doing this, I'd do exactly the same). Lets suppose you reverse engineered skype. Would you open source it? Or seek to make at least a little money from it. If you chose to open source, it's likely many others would make money from it instead of you.
- DannoHung 17y ago
  How on earth would I make money from reverse engineered Skype? I can't even fathom it, the amount of work it would take TO make money from a reverse engineered protocol for communicating with Skype servers. I would not even know where to start. Here's what I think: the $200MM going to Meebo has NOTHING to do with them using the libpurple library. My reasoning: Any other web based chat company would have the same capability to exploit libpurple in their strategy. Web companies don't get funding for their technology ever. They get funding for their eyeballs and stickiness. Finally, on the subject of backhanded insults: Imagine that you were physically speaking with a group of libpurple developers and said, "Boy, if I were in your shoes, I'd feel like a bunch of idiots!"
  - axod 17y ago
    >> "the $200MM going to Meebo has NOTHING to do with them using the libpurple library." Without the libpurple library, Meebo may not have existed. Or at least would have been far far harder to execute afaics. libpurple isn't just another framework, or webserver. It's very valuable reverse engineering effort. As I said, [I] would feel like a complete idiot, if I worked my ass off to create something, only to see a company exploit+monetize it. That is not in any way the same as calling libpurple developers idiots. >> "How on earth would I make money from reverse engineered Skype? I can't even fathom it, the amount of work it would take TO make money from a reverse engineered protocol for communicating with Skype servers. I would not even know where to start." Seriously?? There are many many ways you could monetize the ability to communicate over the skype protocol. You could build cool plugin services. You could build something to make peoples voices sound like robots - disguizr.com or b2b stuff, voicemail, you could build your own skypeout competitor. etc etc etc you could build conferencing services ontop of it. Prank/joke call things. Voice recognition bot services. I'd say at least one of those would work. If you sat down and thought, I'm sure anyone here could come up with some killer applications.
    - viraptor 17y ago
      So I take it that you haven't heard of Asterisk for Skype? You can already do some of those things (at least those that don't require rewriting your CLI)

petercooper 17y ago

if someone was making millions from work I'd done, I wouldn't feed proud in the least. I'd feel like an idiot. You should probably clarify. I bet if you were getting a kickback you wouldn't care if someone else were making money. Like if you were a writer or musician and your agent were making a healthy cut, you wouldn't care if you were getting paid too, right? So it really comes down to being jealous other people figured out how to make money from your stuff when you couldn't.. right? That skill has value and perhaps they deserve to be making the cash.

tptacek 17y ago

Meebo employs libpurple developers. The libpurple team looks to have specifically OK'd Meebo's use of libpurple. I don't think they feel "hard done by".

axod 17y ago
Maybe it was harsh of me to use meebo/libpurple as an example here in that case. Hopefully they're getting a good chunk of the VC money etc.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- tptacek 17y ago
  Here's where you point out that you compete with Meebo.
  - axod 17y ago
    Not really, Meebo don't really have a large groupchat offering, and Mibbit don't really have much of an IM offering :) point taken though... As I said at the start, I wasn't beating on Meebo, I think they've done a great job. I'm sure there's other examples, but Meebo was the one that sprang to mind.

wmf 17y ago

Whenever I hear about some open source volunteers who "did the hard part" and then someone else came along, "slapped a GUI on it" and made big bucks, I wonder why the original developers didn't bother to do that part. Maybe the real value isn't where a lot of people think it is. After reading all these stories, I conclude that if you build only infrastructure you are going to get nothing back. Maybe the DHH approach is better: Build an app and then factor some infrastructure out of it later.