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I really want Rust to succeed, but I'm not a systems programmer. Do people feel that there is still a place for Rust among those who typically work with higher-

I really want Rust to succeed, but I'm not a systems programmer. Do people feel that there is still a place for Rust among those who typically work with higher-level languages? The functional aspects and type system of Rust look really appealing, and I'd love to do my part to help it do well by actually using it.

steveklabnik 13y ago
I am primarily a Rubyist, but I'm head over heels for Rust. I'm pretty sure I've inculcated wycats with similar feels. You might be interested in http://words.steveklabnik.com/rust-is-surprisingly-expressive http://words.steveklabnik.com/rust-is-surprisingly-expressiv... , which is sort of about this.
- bascule 13y ago
  Ditto for me, but I came from a largely C background prior to Ruby
kibwen 13y ago
I was exclusively a Javascript/Python/Java programmer before jumping into Rust. If you're looking to learn a systems language with real bare-metal capabilities, Rust's safety features will go a long way towards keeping you on the straight and narrow as you figure out the concepts essential to low-level programming. And because Steve seems reluctant to plug his own book, here's Rust for Rubyists, which is an introduction to Rust geared towards users of higher-level programming languages: http://www.rustforrubyists.com/ http://www.rustforrubyists.com/
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  This reminded me that I needed to actually release the 0.9 update I wrote over the weekend! Thanks :)
  - arms 13y ago
    Thanks kibwen for the link, and thanks steveklabnik for writing this. I've been interested in Rust and this looks like a nice way to get my feet wet.
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      You're welcome! Feedback appreciated.
  - silasb 13y ago
    I want to thank you for a good introduction to rust and can't wait to read the 0.9 updated version.
    - steveklabnik 13y ago
      You're very welcome. I missed one or two things, so there will be another update this weekend.
- bsg75 13y ago
  Anything like a rustforpythonistas been mentioned anywhere?
  - avparker 13y ago
    It doesn't really require a knowledge of ruby, so you might want to have a look. From the FAQ on the front page: Do I have to know Ruby? Really, I love alliteration: the only thing the 'for Rubyists' really means is that I assume you don't know about pointers, concurrency, or similar things. That's okay, you've never had to think about them before! I explain this stuff in extra depth. If you program in another dynamically typed language, you'll be just fine. If you program in another systems language, you'll be more than fine.
gilgoomesh 13y ago
There is nothing about the Rust language that makes it ill-suited to higher level work. It's a much easier, safer, language than C++ (which is used for higher level development in MFC) or Objective-C (which is used for higher level development in Cocoa). At this stage though, the library support for higher level functions is lacking – mostly due to relative youth of the language. At this stage, you won't find much support for UI code and there's a relatively small number of libraries supporting HTTP servers and services. You could write bindings for these things yourself (and they'll certainly be written over time) but you won't find it out-of-the-box right now.
- dbaupp 13y ago
  FWIW, it's worth being precise on what "easier" means: Rust isn't necessarily an easier language to get started in than C++ and so on. Like Haskell, the compiler complains at you, and complains a lot. (Which can be rather discouraging for a beginner.) However once you've satisfied the compiler, your program often runs perfectly first time (modulo logic bugs, which a compiler can help with (like warning about dead stores, and mutable variables that aren't mutated... which rustc does) but can't detect or fix in general). This is in stark contrast to C/C++ etc where a program normally needs a liberal application of gdb and valgrind to be safe. Hence: I'd say it's harder to write code but easier to write correct code in Rust.
usea 13y ago
FWIW I see a lot of people on #rust who come from a C# background.
lmm 13y ago
There'll always be some place for manual memory management - and if the languages for it get better then that space gets wider. I like the fact that they're taking typing seriously, but assuming you don't need the manual memory management I've yet to see any examples of where Rust wins over Haskell/Scala/F#, or even OCaml (though I could well believe it would perform better).
- pcwalton 13y ago
  I'd say concurrency support is a big one: Rust rules out data races at compile time, eliminating the need for race detectors, while ensuring that you still have the full array of options when it comes to shared memory, locks, and so on.
  - lmm 13y ago
    What do you mean by "rules out data races"? If I have one piece of code that writes two variables and another that reads them on another thread, there's no way for the compiler to know whether those two changes need to be atomic, serialized, or uncoordinated.
    - dbaupp 13y ago
      I believe the "data race" definition pcwalton is using is the one from C++11: "a race condition between non-atomic variables". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition#C.2B.2B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition#C.2B.2B
    - samnardoni 13y ago
      2 threads can't access the same variable in Rust without unsafe{}. I think, anyway...
    - pcwalton 13y ago
      Access to shared mutable memory without use of a synchronization primitive. It's the same definition data race detectors use.

steveklabnik 13y ago

I am primarily a Rubyist, but I'm head over heels for Rust. I'm pretty sure I've inculcated wycats with similar feels. You might be interested in http://words.steveklabnik.com/rust-is-surprisingly-expressive http://words.steveklabnik.com/rust-is-surprisingly-expressiv... , which is sort of about this.

bascule 13y ago
Ditto for me, but I came from a largely C background prior to Ruby

kibwen 13y ago

I was exclusively a Javascript/Python/Java programmer before jumping into Rust. If you're looking to learn a systems language with real bare-metal capabilities, Rust's safety features will go a long way towards keeping you on the straight and narrow as you figure out the concepts essential to low-level programming. And because Steve seems reluctant to plug his own book, here's Rust for Rubyists, which is an introduction to Rust geared towards users of higher-level programming languages: http://www.rustforrubyists.com/ http://www.rustforrubyists.com/

steveklabnik 13y ago
This reminded me that I needed to actually release the 0.9 update I wrote over the weekend! Thanks :)
- arms 13y ago
  Thanks kibwen for the link, and thanks steveklabnik for writing this. I've been interested in Rust and this looks like a nice way to get my feet wet.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    You're welcome! Feedback appreciated.
- silasb 13y ago
  I want to thank you for a good introduction to rust and can't wait to read the 0.9 updated version.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    You're very welcome. I missed one or two things, so there will be another update this weekend.
bsg75 13y ago
Anything like a rustforpythonistas been mentioned anywhere?
- avparker 13y ago
  It doesn't really require a knowledge of ruby, so you might want to have a look. From the FAQ on the front page: Do I have to know Ruby? Really, I love alliteration: the only thing the 'for Rubyists' really means is that I assume you don't know about pointers, concurrency, or similar things. That's okay, you've never had to think about them before! I explain this stuff in extra depth. If you program in another dynamically typed language, you'll be just fine. If you program in another systems language, you'll be more than fine.

gilgoomesh 13y ago

There is nothing about the Rust language that makes it ill-suited to higher level work. It's a much easier, safer, language than C++ (which is used for higher level development in MFC) or Objective-C (which is used for higher level development in Cocoa). At this stage though, the library support for higher level functions is lacking – mostly due to relative youth of the language. At this stage, you won't find much support for UI code and there's a relatively small number of libraries supporting HTTP servers and services. You could write bindings for these things yourself (and they'll certainly be written over time) but you won't find it out-of-the-box right now.

dbaupp 13y ago
FWIW, it's worth being precise on what "easier" means: Rust isn't necessarily an easier language to get started in than C++ and so on. Like Haskell, the compiler complains at you, and complains a lot. (Which can be rather discouraging for a beginner.) However once you've satisfied the compiler, your program often runs perfectly first time (modulo logic bugs, which a compiler can help with (like warning about dead stores, and mutable variables that aren't mutated... which rustc does) but can't detect or fix in general). This is in stark contrast to C/C++ etc where a program normally needs a liberal application of gdb and valgrind to be safe. Hence: I'd say it's harder to write code but easier to write correct code in Rust.

usea 13y ago

FWIW I see a lot of people on #rust who come from a C# background.

lmm 13y ago

There'll always be some place for manual memory management - and if the languages for it get better then that space gets wider. I like the fact that they're taking typing seriously, but assuming you don't need the manual memory management I've yet to see any examples of where Rust wins over Haskell/Scala/F#, or even OCaml (though I could well believe it would perform better).

pcwalton 13y ago
I'd say concurrency support is a big one: Rust rules out data races at compile time, eliminating the need for race detectors, while ensuring that you still have the full array of options when it comes to shared memory, locks, and so on.
- lmm 13y ago
  What do you mean by "rules out data races"? If I have one piece of code that writes two variables and another that reads them on another thread, there's no way for the compiler to know whether those two changes need to be atomic, serialized, or uncoordinated.
  - dbaupp 13y ago
    I believe the "data race" definition pcwalton is using is the one from C++11: "a race condition between non-atomic variables". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition#C.2B.2B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_condition#C.2B.2B
  - samnardoni 13y ago
    2 threads can't access the same variable in Rust without unsafe{}. I think, anyway...
  - pcwalton 13y ago
    Access to shared mutable memory without use of a synchronization primitive. It's the same definition data race detectors use.