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> many people (millions) in Vietnam are going to experience higher standard of living. Aren't therefore many people (millions) in China going to experience low

> many people (millions) in Vietnam are going to experience higher standard of living. Aren't therefore many people (millions) in China going to experience lower standard of living?

blueskin_ 13y ago
Not really, because they are moving to higher paying jobs than assembly-line work.
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  Not all of them. Only the luckiest ones. 1-10% probably. The rest got laid off.
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    You suggest there are massive lay offs in China now because factories are moving to Vietnam? What are you talking about?
davidw 13y ago
The economy is not a zero-sum game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
- sixthloginorso 13y ago
  The economy isn't magical either; jobs lost in one region because the factories closed and moved to another aren't necessarily going to be recouped by new job creation in a short span of time.
  - davidw 13y ago
    Then we should probably do what we can to help the worst off in the economy, whether they've lost their jobs due to new technology, moving factories, or whatever, rather than trying to nail the factories down to one particular place.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - JonnieCache 13y ago
      >help the worst off in the economy The problem with this is, the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine which they use to prevent that from happening, claiming it prevents them from building more factories. They use the same political machine to establish the moral goodness of continued factory building as axiomatic. This makes everything rather complicated.
      - Artistry121 13y ago
        Yes, government intervention does make things rather complicated.
        JonnieCache 13y ago
        Ah, the old "when I no longer have to suffer the indignity of taxation I will donate half my money to the poor" argument. I wonder why I find it so hard to believe that the bottomless greed of capital will suddenly evaporate when we give them the entirely greed-based anarcho-capitalist society they want? But I agree with you that "factory owners" and "government" are basically the same people. That's what I was referring to by the political machine I mentioned above, although it extends far beyond government.
      - davidw 13y ago
        > the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine Well, yes and no. The view I espoused was pretty similar to what Warren Buffet says, and that guy has owned a factory or two in his day. Even in the US, which has less government, there are a number of programs for those who don't have much. Perhaps you'd like to see more - fair enough - but the exact level of support is open for debate, isn't it? I don't think we'll ever agree on precisely what it should consist of. The Nordic states seem to work pretty well with more government. Probably depends on a lot of factors... So I don't think there's any big cabal, really.
- jellicle 13y ago
  Moving plants is not what the link you are linking to talks about. And in fact, what you are linking to is a right-wing attack on very legitimate economic ideas. The introduction of the 40-hour week did increase employment, and further reduction of work weeks would indeed increase the number of people employed (as we see already: all job growth in the U.S. currently is full-time jobs being converted into multiple part-time jobs in the service industry). That is, you've linked to a discussion of something on Wikipedia and you believe that the discussion of it proves its truthfulness; nothing could be further from the truth. See also: discussion of moon landing conspiracies. In fact, if I fire someone in China and hire someone in Vietnam, I have indeed engaged in a zero-sum transaction - actually a negative-sum transaction, since I'll be paying the Vietnamese guy less than the Chinese guy. Overall, the world economy will be moving slower because of my actions.
  - davidw 13y ago
    If the economy were zero-sum, we would be far poorer today, with 7 billion people, than 200 years ago, when there were only 1 billion people, right? I don't believe in things like "the market will sort everything out", by the way. There are winners and losers, and I think society has some duty to help take care of those who get the short end of the stick. But I don't think "don't let the factories move" is the right way to help those people, long term.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

> many people (millions) in Vietnam are going to experience higher standard of living. Aren't therefore many people (millions) in China going to experience lower standard of living?

blueskin_ 13y ago

Not really, because they are moving to higher paying jobs than assembly-line work.

edwinnathaniel 13y ago
Not all of them. Only the luckiest ones. 1-10% probably. The rest got laid off.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  You suggest there are massive lay offs in China now because factories are moving to Vietnam? What are you talking about?

davidw 13y ago

The economy is not a zero-sum game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

sixthloginorso 13y ago
The economy isn't magical either; jobs lost in one region because the factories closed and moved to another aren't necessarily going to be recouped by new job creation in a short span of time.
- davidw 13y ago
  Then we should probably do what we can to help the worst off in the economy, whether they've lost their jobs due to new technology, moving factories, or whatever, rather than trying to nail the factories down to one particular place.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - JonnieCache 13y ago
    >help the worst off in the economy The problem with this is, the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine which they use to prevent that from happening, claiming it prevents them from building more factories. They use the same political machine to establish the moral goodness of continued factory building as axiomatic. This makes everything rather complicated.
    - Artistry121 13y ago
      Yes, government intervention does make things rather complicated.
      - JonnieCache 13y ago
        Ah, the old "when I no longer have to suffer the indignity of taxation I will donate half my money to the poor" argument. I wonder why I find it so hard to believe that the bottomless greed of capital will suddenly evaporate when we give them the entirely greed-based anarcho-capitalist society they want? But I agree with you that "factory owners" and "government" are basically the same people. That's what I was referring to by the political machine I mentioned above, although it extends far beyond government.
    - davidw 13y ago
      > the "factory owners" of the world run a political machine Well, yes and no. The view I espoused was pretty similar to what Warren Buffet says, and that guy has owned a factory or two in his day. Even in the US, which has less government, there are a number of programs for those who don't have much. Perhaps you'd like to see more - fair enough - but the exact level of support is open for debate, isn't it? I don't think we'll ever agree on precisely what it should consist of. The Nordic states seem to work pretty well with more government. Probably depends on a lot of factors... So I don't think there's any big cabal, really.
jellicle 13y ago
Moving plants is not what the link you are linking to talks about. And in fact, what you are linking to is a right-wing attack on very legitimate economic ideas. The introduction of the 40-hour week did increase employment, and further reduction of work weeks would indeed increase the number of people employed (as we see already: all job growth in the U.S. currently is full-time jobs being converted into multiple part-time jobs in the service industry). That is, you've linked to a discussion of something on Wikipedia and you believe that the discussion of it proves its truthfulness; nothing could be further from the truth. See also: discussion of moon landing conspiracies. In fact, if I fire someone in China and hire someone in Vietnam, I have indeed engaged in a zero-sum transaction - actually a negative-sum transaction, since I'll be paying the Vietnamese guy less than the Chinese guy. Overall, the world economy will be moving slower because of my actions.
- davidw 13y ago
  If the economy were zero-sum, we would be far poorer today, with 7 billion people, than 200 years ago, when there were only 1 billion people, right? I don't believe in things like "the market will sort everything out", by the way. There are winners and losers, and I think society has some duty to help take care of those who get the short end of the stick. But I don't think "don't let the factories move" is the right way to help those people, long term.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]