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Oddly, he mentions three client-side areas: Web, iOS and Android. Did anyone else notice that he didn't mention "THE DESKTOP" or any native applications? I don

Oddly, he mentions three client-side areas: Web, iOS and Android. Did anyone else notice that he didn't mention "THE DESKTOP" or any native applications? I don't know about you but I tend to use native applications every day and use the web for getting data and info. I don't use "apps" that sit in a browser all day. If he thought that the Web/iOS/Android system was bad, he should have actually put Web / iOS / Android / WindowsPhone / Metro / NatinveWin32 / Linux / Mac OS. Although the web was meant to fix all the problems with writing cross-platform apps, it hasn't. So I still happily use and write native applications for each platform instead of writing something for the Web that'll be out of date in a few years or will need testing in one of any 25+ combinations of browsers on different platforms. Anyone else?

ksk 13y ago
Given the hundreds of millions of Windows users, can you think of thousands (or even hundreds) of Small Businesses making money selling applications to Windows users? The only ones that I know of are large companies - Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, Adobe, VMWare, etc. And if you include the parasites of the software world there are the companies like Symantec, Kaspersky and their ilk. But those are all giant companies.
- 72deluxe 13y ago
  Perhaps not thousands. But do you use an online accounting package or do they use Sage or Pegasus? Do you use an online 3D modelling system or do you use Maya / Blender / 3DS Max / SolidWerks etc.? Do you use an online media player or do you use MPlayer / VLC / FFMPEG etc.? Do you play games online in a browser or do you play games written under DirectX / OpenGL that run natively? Was your time scheduled at work using an online system or a timetabling / resource management piece of software? For quotes, do you use an online system or do people use Quotewerks etc.? People forget the massive native application market and the many years of software heritage that Windows permits them to still run. Just because giant companies create widely used applications doesn't mean that there isn't a vast myriad of other software floating around that isn't written to run in a web browser. There is a trend, particularly here on HN, to think that all software revolves around stuff done in a browser but it is narrow minded. Native software typically has a much longer lifespan.
  - ksk 13y ago
    How many small businesses are making money shipping software on windows ?
    - 72deluxe 13y ago
      What classes as a small business? Up to what size? I don't have figures but I have worked for 2 in the past that wrote software for Windows, one solely existing for the software, the other for complimenting their services with a side software product. They managed to turnover > £1million and >£4 million respectively. Do we need to have thousands of companies listed in order for their software to qualify as "software" in your eyes? The main point was that Tim ignored desktop native software in his analysis of software, which I felt was an oversight given that probably 98% of jobs involving a computer use desktop software all day long, software that was purchased. I do not see Doris in the admin office using a web browser all day long for her job. Just because you and I might not be buying desktop software in droves does not mean that there isn't a market for it, a pretty sizeable market. Home users might not be buying masses of desktop software but companies still do, particularly through licensing. Tablets haven't changed the way many people do work at work. At home perhaps, but not work. I am not sure what your point is or why the size of the business is important to what software is being produced...?
      - ksk 13y ago
        You can use any definition you like. 50-ish employees? >Do we need to have thousands of companies listed in order for their software to qualify as "software" in your eyes? No, I just asked a simple question because I didn't know. I have no idea what you think you're replying to. But from your reply I get that you don't have the answer to my question. >I am not sure what your point is or why the size of the business is important to what software is being produced...? I just asked a question. I don't know of people starting companies to ship commercial windows software. Ofcource custom software development is certainly a vibrant domain, but that was not the focus of my question. When you see tons of people starting companies to ship software on a platform - that gives you an idea (in general terms) of the 'profitability' of that platform in terms of small business being able to make some money. I have not seen that on the windows platform in quite a while. I don't know why you're assuming I'm some kind of anti-native pro-web person. I'm primarily a low-level C++ programmer.
orthecreedence 13y ago
I've recently discovered node-webkit (https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit) which I've been liking a lot. It's more or less chrome, packaged as a one-off app, that only runs the code you give it. Converting the app (web/browser extension) I'm working on to use it has so far been extremely favorable. On top of this, it embeds node.js in the browser runtime. So not only do you get all of chromium's HTML5 features, but you get a whole hell of a lot of native libraries for free via node.js. It also has a good amount of UI helpers built in so you can keep the OS-specific code to a minimum. This lets you hit both web and desktop (Windows, Linux, Mac) with a very similar/same codebase. Then all that's left is mobile =]. Worth checking out.
was_hellbanned 13y ago
IMO, as a long-time desktop developer (occasional early mobile and web), unless you're interfacing with hardware, there is probably no reason for you to be writing a true native desktop application. At this point, even if I were writing business CRUD apps, I think I'd be reluctant to start using, say, C# and .Net, preferring some kind of packaged system allowing me to, effectively, write desktop apps using mobile languages and stacks.

ksk 13y ago

Given the hundreds of millions of Windows users, can you think of thousands (or even hundreds) of Small Businesses making money selling applications to Windows users? The only ones that I know of are large companies - Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, Adobe, VMWare, etc. And if you include the parasites of the software world there are the companies like Symantec, Kaspersky and their ilk. But those are all giant companies.

72deluxe 13y ago
Perhaps not thousands. But do you use an online accounting package or do they use Sage or Pegasus? Do you use an online 3D modelling system or do you use Maya / Blender / 3DS Max / SolidWerks etc.? Do you use an online media player or do you use MPlayer / VLC / FFMPEG etc.? Do you play games online in a browser or do you play games written under DirectX / OpenGL that run natively? Was your time scheduled at work using an online system or a timetabling / resource management piece of software? For quotes, do you use an online system or do people use Quotewerks etc.? People forget the massive native application market and the many years of software heritage that Windows permits them to still run. Just because giant companies create widely used applications doesn't mean that there isn't a vast myriad of other software floating around that isn't written to run in a web browser. There is a trend, particularly here on HN, to think that all software revolves around stuff done in a browser but it is narrow minded. Native software typically has a much longer lifespan.
- ksk 13y ago
  How many small businesses are making money shipping software on windows ?
  - 72deluxe 13y ago
    What classes as a small business? Up to what size? I don't have figures but I have worked for 2 in the past that wrote software for Windows, one solely existing for the software, the other for complimenting their services with a side software product. They managed to turnover > £1million and >£4 million respectively. Do we need to have thousands of companies listed in order for their software to qualify as "software" in your eyes? The main point was that Tim ignored desktop native software in his analysis of software, which I felt was an oversight given that probably 98% of jobs involving a computer use desktop software all day long, software that was purchased. I do not see Doris in the admin office using a web browser all day long for her job. Just because you and I might not be buying desktop software in droves does not mean that there isn't a market for it, a pretty sizeable market. Home users might not be buying masses of desktop software but companies still do, particularly through licensing. Tablets haven't changed the way many people do work at work. At home perhaps, but not work. I am not sure what your point is or why the size of the business is important to what software is being produced...?
    - ksk 13y ago
      You can use any definition you like. 50-ish employees? >Do we need to have thousands of companies listed in order for their software to qualify as "software" in your eyes? No, I just asked a simple question because I didn't know. I have no idea what you think you're replying to. But from your reply I get that you don't have the answer to my question. >I am not sure what your point is or why the size of the business is important to what software is being produced...? I just asked a question. I don't know of people starting companies to ship commercial windows software. Ofcource custom software development is certainly a vibrant domain, but that was not the focus of my question. When you see tons of people starting companies to ship software on a platform - that gives you an idea (in general terms) of the 'profitability' of that platform in terms of small business being able to make some money. I have not seen that on the windows platform in quite a while. I don't know why you're assuming I'm some kind of anti-native pro-web person. I'm primarily a low-level C++ programmer.

orthecreedence 13y ago

I've recently discovered node-webkit (https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit) which I've been liking a lot. It's more or less chrome, packaged as a one-off app, that only runs the code you give it. Converting the app (web/browser extension) I'm working on to use it has so far been extremely favorable. On top of this, it embeds node.js in the browser runtime. So not only do you get all of chromium's HTML5 features, but you get a whole hell of a lot of native libraries for free via node.js. It also has a good amount of UI helpers built in so you can keep the OS-specific code to a minimum. This lets you hit both web and desktop (Windows, Linux, Mac) with a very similar/same codebase. Then all that's left is mobile =]. Worth checking out.

was_hellbanned 13y ago

IMO, as a long-time desktop developer (occasional early mobile and web), unless you're interfacing with hardware, there is probably no reason for you to be writing a true native desktop application. At this point, even if I were writing business CRUD apps, I think I'd be reluctant to start using, say, C# and .Net, preferring some kind of packaged system allowing me to, effectively, write desktop apps using mobile languages and stacks.