7 ms·

For someone that works on Go at Google I'm shocked by your very much subjective view of PHP. Elitist much?

by xd 13y ago

ciupicri 13y ago
It's not just his view, there are other people who feel the same way about PHP.
dmak 13y ago
That comment didn't even come across as elitist. There was no need to get personal.
- xd 13y ago
  He works on Go at Google. A skilled professional no doubt, could he not have made some valid points rather than simply calling PHP disgusting. It didn't add anything to the conversation. If you where in the pub and someone spent some time listing the virtues of the pint they where drinking, and then someone joined in the conversation and called it disgusting with no basis .. wouldn't you find that to be odd behavior?
  - grey-area 13y ago
    He probably didn't elaborate because he felt the basis for the view was clear - there are clearly areas of PHP which still need work. PHP is often frowned upon because the APIs are a mess of legacy cruft like addslashes, magic_quotes, mysql_escape_string, mysql_real_escape_string, mysqli_real_escape_string versus prepared statements. Efforts are being made to clean it up, but for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag.
    - xd 13y ago
      Check the manual; magic_quotes, mysql_escape_string and mysql_real_escape_string have already been deprecated/removed.
      - grey-area 13y ago
        I'm aware of that thanks, as noted in the last line: Efforts are being made to clean it up, but for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag.
        xd 13y ago
        "for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag." At the time it was reasonable .. but PHP evolved and learned lessons, it didn't just stop there as you seem to be saying.
    - cowsandmilk 13y ago
      mysql_escape_string [1] mysql_real_escape_string [2] Why is exposing a C library's functions and their names PHP's fault? [1] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-escape-string.html http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-escape-string.h... [2] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-real-escape-string.html http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-real-escape-str...
      - Joeri 13y ago
        Because php ends up combining the API consistency of C with the syntactic elegance of visual basic. I say this as someone who programs php professionally, the fact that they still haven't provided a complete set of OO api's very much speaks against the language stewards. PHP could have a sane subset, like javascript, but because there are gaps in the API (like the string and array API's, which are horrible) you can't get a sane subset without adding some extra API wrappers of your own. And that's why it's impossible to build frameworkless PHP code that is elegant, something that even the designed-in-10-days javascript lets you do. Still, i like php for its getting things done mentality. What it lacks in elegance it makes up for in productivity.
  - zxcdw 13y ago
    He did explain why PHP is disgusting mess. And hell, the fact that people have that opinion stems from somewhere. And that is a fact we should all take a note of -- to build better tools. You see, PHP is nothing but a tool, and as a tool, it's not very liked one due to it's flaws. Solution? Abandon it! Build new, better tools instead of feeling threathened. Le PHP sink and die it's well deserved death and make way for better tools, because professionals shouldn't feel attached to their tools, instead they should be critical towards them and look to find better ones.
    - xd 13y ago
      "haphazardly accumulated features" is not an explanation, it's a subjective point of view. "it's not very liked one due to it's flaws", PHP is very well liked, just not by everyone .. which goes for most things in life.
      - josteink 13y ago
        "haphazardly accumulated features" is not an explanation, it's a subjective point of view. If you really need it, here's a very good write-up which should cover that in an impressively detailed manner: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de...
        xd 13y ago
        This was hotly debated, by myself included, right here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3820431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3820431 He has updated the article over time which is good of him, but much of it is still subjective and from a quick glance there are points that no longer hold true.
        Tegran 13y ago
        Here's one rebuttal to that: http://forums.devshed.com/php-development-5/php-is-a-fractal-of-bad-design-hardly-929746.html http://forums.devshed.com/php-development-5/php-is-a-fractal...
  - ben0x539 13y ago
    Do you really want another thread in which everybody enumerates their favorite issues with php?
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Even if he hadn't explained why, and he did, it still wouldn't be elitist.
  - enneff 13y ago
    Sorry if I upset you. Your feature list is no stronger a point than my response, though. Features don't make a language great. Clarity, consistency, simplicity, and orthogonality do. PHP has none of those qualities. I know, because I used it extensively for a decade. I stand by my comment. I can see why people like PHP but nobody in their right mind should deny that it is a mess and that it was constructed haphazardly.
aaronem 13y ago
"Elitist?" I came into web development via the PHP tradesman's entrance, and until by the grace of God I found my way out into the wider world, I didn't even begin to suspect just how miserable I had it. If there's a tinge of elitism in the wider world's attitude toward PHP, I'll be the first to contend that it's justified.
- ThomPete 13y ago
  Yeah I think you are more like an ex-smoker who after you managed to quit tells everyone who awful smoking is :)
  - aaronem 13y ago
    Not really a parallel; you'll never meet a long-time cigarette smoker who doesn't know how awful a habit it is, although you'll probably meet some who will lie about it. On the other hand -- and I say this as a smoker, albeit as one who's cut back his habit to almost nothing over the last couple years -- smoking is an awful habit, which is both severely addictive and without meaningful benefit for the person with the habit or for anyone else. So I suppose I'm not all that inclined to quibble about the not-quite-perfect parallel, after all. :)
    - ThomPete 13y ago
      In other words. The parallel is perfect.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
enneff 13y ago
I wrote PHP code for 10 years. You could say my relationship with the language is pretty subjective.
- xd 13y ago
  When did you stop developing with PHP? edit: you know what would be great, if you could show some common programming examples in PHP and how Go would manage the same situation.

For someone that works on Go at Google I'm shocked by your very much subjective view of PHP. Elitist much?

by xd 13y ago

For someone that works on Go at Google I'm shocked by your very much subjective view of PHP. Elitist much?

ciupicri 13y ago

It's not just his view, there are other people who feel the same way about PHP.

dmak 13y ago

That comment didn't even come across as elitist. There was no need to get personal.

xd 13y ago
He works on Go at Google. A skilled professional no doubt, could he not have made some valid points rather than simply calling PHP disgusting. It didn't add anything to the conversation. If you where in the pub and someone spent some time listing the virtues of the pint they where drinking, and then someone joined in the conversation and called it disgusting with no basis .. wouldn't you find that to be odd behavior?
- grey-area 13y ago
  He probably didn't elaborate because he felt the basis for the view was clear - there are clearly areas of PHP which still need work. PHP is often frowned upon because the APIs are a mess of legacy cruft like addslashes, magic_quotes, mysql_escape_string, mysql_real_escape_string, mysqli_real_escape_string versus prepared statements. Efforts are being made to clean it up, but for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag.
  - xd 13y ago
    Check the manual; magic_quotes, mysql_escape_string and mysql_real_escape_string have already been deprecated/removed.
    - grey-area 13y ago
      I'm aware of that thanks, as noted in the last line: Efforts are being made to clean it up, but for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag.
      - xd 13y ago
        "for a language to ever end up in a place with that sort of library functions is a pretty big red flag." At the time it was reasonable .. but PHP evolved and learned lessons, it didn't just stop there as you seem to be saying.
  - cowsandmilk 13y ago
    mysql_escape_string [1] mysql_real_escape_string [2] Why is exposing a C library's functions and their names PHP's fault? [1] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-escape-string.html http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-escape-string.h... [2] http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-real-escape-string.html http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.5/en/mysql-real-escape-str...
    - Joeri 13y ago
      Because php ends up combining the API consistency of C with the syntactic elegance of visual basic. I say this as someone who programs php professionally, the fact that they still haven't provided a complete set of OO api's very much speaks against the language stewards. PHP could have a sane subset, like javascript, but because there are gaps in the API (like the string and array API's, which are horrible) you can't get a sane subset without adding some extra API wrappers of your own. And that's why it's impossible to build frameworkless PHP code that is elegant, something that even the designed-in-10-days javascript lets you do. Still, i like php for its getting things done mentality. What it lacks in elegance it makes up for in productivity.
- zxcdw 13y ago
  He did explain why PHP is disgusting mess. And hell, the fact that people have that opinion stems from somewhere. And that is a fact we should all take a note of -- to build better tools. You see, PHP is nothing but a tool, and as a tool, it's not very liked one due to it's flaws. Solution? Abandon it! Build new, better tools instead of feeling threathened. Le PHP sink and die it's well deserved death and make way for better tools, because professionals shouldn't feel attached to their tools, instead they should be critical towards them and look to find better ones.
  - xd 13y ago
    "haphazardly accumulated features" is not an explanation, it's a subjective point of view. "it's not very liked one due to it's flaws", PHP is very well liked, just not by everyone .. which goes for most things in life.
    - josteink 13y ago
      "haphazardly accumulated features" is not an explanation, it's a subjective point of view. If you really need it, here's a very good write-up which should cover that in an impressively detailed manner: http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de...
      - xd 13y ago
        This was hotly debated, by myself included, right here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3820431 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3820431 He has updated the article over time which is good of him, but much of it is still subjective and from a quick glance there are points that no longer hold true.
      - Tegran 13y ago
        Here's one rebuttal to that: http://forums.devshed.com/php-development-5/php-is-a-fractal-of-bad-design-hardly-929746.html http://forums.devshed.com/php-development-5/php-is-a-fractal...
- ben0x539 13y ago
  Do you really want another thread in which everybody enumerates their favorite issues with php?
- icebraining 13y ago
  Even if he hadn't explained why, and he did, it still wouldn't be elitist.
- enneff 13y ago
  Sorry if I upset you. Your feature list is no stronger a point than my response, though. Features don't make a language great. Clarity, consistency, simplicity, and orthogonality do. PHP has none of those qualities. I know, because I used it extensively for a decade. I stand by my comment. I can see why people like PHP but nobody in their right mind should deny that it is a mess and that it was constructed haphazardly.

aaronem 13y ago

"Elitist?" I came into web development via the PHP tradesman's entrance, and until by the grace of God I found my way out into the wider world, I didn't even begin to suspect just how miserable I had it. If there's a tinge of elitism in the wider world's attitude toward PHP, I'll be the first to contend that it's justified.

ThomPete 13y ago
Yeah I think you are more like an ex-smoker who after you managed to quit tells everyone who awful smoking is :)
- aaronem 13y ago
  Not really a parallel; you'll never meet a long-time cigarette smoker who doesn't know how awful a habit it is, although you'll probably meet some who will lie about it. On the other hand -- and I say this as a smoker, albeit as one who's cut back his habit to almost nothing over the last couple years -- smoking is an awful habit, which is both severely addictive and without meaningful benefit for the person with the habit or for anyone else. So I suppose I'm not all that inclined to quibble about the not-quite-perfect parallel, after all. :)
  - ThomPete 13y ago
    In other words. The parallel is perfect.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

enneff 13y ago

I wrote PHP code for 10 years. You could say my relationship with the language is pretty subjective.

xd 13y ago
When did you stop developing with PHP? edit: you know what would be great, if you could show some common programming examples in PHP and how Go would manage the same situation.