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I don't think I disputed anything in your first two paragraphs, but let me know if you think I did. As you say, the strongest wins, so why rely on something lik

I don't think I disputed anything in your first two paragraphs, but let me know if you think I did. As you say, the strongest wins, so why rely on something like adverse possession? If you're saying it ought to apply here solely for the purpose of preventing violence, then, as I said, it doesn't seem necessary. USG's military and propaganda arms are powerful enough today as to make this irrelevant. Of course, if most of the residents are very dissatisfied with their sovereign and are willing to take extreme measures, they have a chance of winning regardless of immediately available firepower. This is where the question of legitimacy matters, because a sovereign will have at least some trouble if its residents do not accept its legitimacy, even if it wins in the end.

bokonist 17y ago
This is where the question of legitimacy matters, because a sovereign will have at least some trouble if its residents do not accept its legitimacy, even if it wins in the end. There are two things to consider in regards to USG's relationship with middle-North America: a) property ownership b) management structure I do not view the property ownership as illegitimate. I do not agree with the libertarians who view taxation as theft. I think such a view is neither justified nor constructive. USG's management structure is awful. It badly needs reform or a reboot. The goal of a management reboot is not so that us subjects will pay more taxes. It's so that resources will not be squandered. This would end up being good for us subjects, but it would also be in the interest of USG itself. Thus I view a management change as more likely to succeed and less likely to incite violence. If a management structure is bad enough, an outside group could be morally justified ( though not legally justified) in trying to seize the territory itself. But that would be worst case.
- johnnybgoode 17y ago
  > I do not view the property ownership as illegitimate. I do not agree with the libertarians who view taxation as theft. I think such a view is neither justified nor constructive. Yes, there are some libertarians who naively, and incorrectly, believe they are the de facto owners of property in the US. That is, they would not even agree that USG actually owns all US property. However, I'm afraid I still don't see why you view USG's ownership as legitimate, unless you are equating de facto ownership with legitimate ownership -- i.e., you don't believe there is any difference between the two. > USG's management structure is awful... Agreed, of course. > ...but it would also be in the interest of USG itself. Thus I view a management change as more likely to succeed and less likely to incite violence. I'm not so sure about this. Yes, USG could be run more profitably, but severe agency problems exist. Would the leaders of the Catholic Church want their subjects to be told there is no God, even if these leaders were paid large sums of money? Power and influence are worth something to them as well. > If a management structure is bad enough, an outside group could be morally justified ( though not legally justified) in trying to seize the territory itself. But that would be worst case. I assume a group of subjects would also count as an "outside group"? If we are using common legal principles, then for the reasons I mentioned earlier, I suggest they would be legally justified as well, even if this might not matter all that much in the real world.
  - bokonist 17y ago
    However, I'm afraid I still don't see why you view USG's ownership as legitimate, unless you are equating de facto ownership with legitimate ownership -- i.e., you don't believe there is any difference between the two. I think the concept of adverse possession is a necessary concept to avoid violence and enable us all to get along with each other. So if de facto ownership exists for long enough, it should be considered legitimate. Would the leaders of the Catholic Church want their subjects to be told there is no God, even if these leaders were paid large sums of money? Power and influence are worth something to them as well. Any Moldbuggian plot to reboot the U.S. would require a critical mass of mandarins to acknowledge the intellectual bankruptcy of the current regime. Well, either mandarins or soldiers. The other option, which is perhaps more plausible, is that perhaps break away republics can form as the U.S. continues to weaken. Those break away republics could innovate new forms of government and provide examples of how to reform USG.
    - johnnybgoode 17y ago
      > I think the concept of adverse possession is a necessary concept to avoid violence and enable us all to get along with each other. If possession is established and maintained violently, I'm not sure legitimizing this is a good way to avoid violence. MM does tend to confuse order with peace. Example: Jack kidnaps John and forces him to work as his slave. John soon attempts to escape but is prevented from doing so. Under Jack's brutal rule, John eventually gives up trying to escape. Years later, Jack's crime is discovered, but Jack is allowed to maintain ownership of John due to adverse possession. Order is preserved, but the violence continues. > Any Moldbuggian plot to reboot the U.S. would require a critical mass of mandarins to acknowledge the intellectual bankruptcy of the current regime. Well, either mandarins or soldiers. If that's true, then yes, a reboot seems about as likely as the Pope declaring his atheism. Well, maybe less likely, because the Pope is just one person. > perhaps break away republics can form as the U.S. continues to weaken Perhaps, but a total collapse of USG or even the formation of the fabled NAU conservatives keep droning on about would surprise me less.
      - bokonist 17y ago

bokonist 17y ago

This is where the question of legitimacy matters, because a sovereign will have at least some trouble if its residents do not accept its legitimacy, even if it wins in the end. There are two things to consider in regards to USG's relationship with middle-North America: a) property ownership b) management structure I do not view the property ownership as illegitimate. I do not agree with the libertarians who view taxation as theft. I think such a view is neither justified nor constructive. USG's management structure is awful. It badly needs reform or a reboot. The goal of a management reboot is not so that us subjects will pay more taxes. It's so that resources will not be squandered. This would end up being good for us subjects, but it would also be in the interest of USG itself. Thus I view a management change as more likely to succeed and less likely to incite violence. If a management structure is bad enough, an outside group could be morally justified ( though not legally justified) in trying to seize the territory itself. But that would be worst case.

johnnybgoode 17y ago
> I do not view the property ownership as illegitimate. I do not agree with the libertarians who view taxation as theft. I think such a view is neither justified nor constructive. Yes, there are some libertarians who naively, and incorrectly, believe they are the de facto owners of property in the US. That is, they would not even agree that USG actually owns all US property. However, I'm afraid I still don't see why you view USG's ownership as legitimate, unless you are equating de facto ownership with legitimate ownership -- i.e., you don't believe there is any difference between the two. > USG's management structure is awful... Agreed, of course. > ...but it would also be in the interest of USG itself. Thus I view a management change as more likely to succeed and less likely to incite violence. I'm not so sure about this. Yes, USG could be run more profitably, but severe agency problems exist. Would the leaders of the Catholic Church want their subjects to be told there is no God, even if these leaders were paid large sums of money? Power and influence are worth something to them as well. > If a management structure is bad enough, an outside group could be morally justified ( though not legally justified) in trying to seize the territory itself. But that would be worst case. I assume a group of subjects would also count as an "outside group"? If we are using common legal principles, then for the reasons I mentioned earlier, I suggest they would be legally justified as well, even if this might not matter all that much in the real world.
- bokonist 17y ago
  However, I'm afraid I still don't see why you view USG's ownership as legitimate, unless you are equating de facto ownership with legitimate ownership -- i.e., you don't believe there is any difference between the two. I think the concept of adverse possession is a necessary concept to avoid violence and enable us all to get along with each other. So if de facto ownership exists for long enough, it should be considered legitimate. Would the leaders of the Catholic Church want their subjects to be told there is no God, even if these leaders were paid large sums of money? Power and influence are worth something to them as well. Any Moldbuggian plot to reboot the U.S. would require a critical mass of mandarins to acknowledge the intellectual bankruptcy of the current regime. Well, either mandarins or soldiers. The other option, which is perhaps more plausible, is that perhaps break away republics can form as the U.S. continues to weaken. Those break away republics could innovate new forms of government and provide examples of how to reform USG.
  - johnnybgoode 17y ago
    > I think the concept of adverse possession is a necessary concept to avoid violence and enable us all to get along with each other. If possession is established and maintained violently, I'm not sure legitimizing this is a good way to avoid violence. MM does tend to confuse order with peace. Example: Jack kidnaps John and forces him to work as his slave. John soon attempts to escape but is prevented from doing so. Under Jack's brutal rule, John eventually gives up trying to escape. Years later, Jack's crime is discovered, but Jack is allowed to maintain ownership of John due to adverse possession. Order is preserved, but the violence continues. > Any Moldbuggian plot to reboot the U.S. would require a critical mass of mandarins to acknowledge the intellectual bankruptcy of the current regime. Well, either mandarins or soldiers. If that's true, then yes, a reboot seems about as likely as the Pope declaring his atheism. Well, maybe less likely, because the Pope is just one person. > perhaps break away republics can form as the U.S. continues to weaken Perhaps, but a total collapse of USG or even the formation of the fabled NAU conservatives keep droning on about would surprise me less.
    - bokonist 17y ago