4 ms·

Does the library sell good coffee and tea... Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. It must be something else.

ams6110 13y ago
Subjective, and goodness of coffee is not binary. Starbucks coffee is, IMO, better than what you find at most "affordable" restaurants, sandwich shops, diners, etc. If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they just want something better than Folgers. There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.
- jules 13y ago
  Many 3 star restaurants serve Nespresso. So yes, good coffee can be found in many places.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Nespresso isn't that great either.
    - jules 13y ago
      For judging what is good coffee, I'm gonna go with the taste of the chefs of those 3 star restaurants, rather than with icebraining on hacker news.
      - icebraining 13y ago
        If you actually read why they pick Nespresso, "the best taste" is not part of the reasons. They cite size, cost, consistency, usability, etc. "in our business, you spend so much time trying to be perfect with food and service that it's very hard to put the same dedication into a coffee program." Don't get me wrong, it's better than what I drink at home, but it's hardly great coffee.
        jules 13y ago
        Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? Sure, it may not be the best coffee in the world, but even 3 star restaurants, which usually spare any expense to improve the quality do not think it is economical to make better coffee themselves. Do they think that Nespresso doesn't have good taste and just "consistency"? Of course not. Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way? I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself, but lets see what you're up against. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Being at home gives you no particular advantage. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Contrast this with, for instance, making bread. Bread tastes 10 times better when it is fresh. Unlike coffee, vacuum sealing a bread is impossible. So even if a factory managed to bake a bread with perfectly tuned parameters, by the time that bread is on your table it doesn't taste great anymore. Coffee simply doesn't have this.
        icebraining 13y ago
        Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? It doesn't matter what I think, you can read what they said. Of course it's not Starbucks quality level, but it's not great coffee, just good enough for the other qualities to win over better tasting coffees. Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way? Sure, the way multiple coffee shops do so here: you buy a decent Italian espresso machine (such as a La Marzocco), you get a few baristas with a couple of decades or more of experience serving coffee, buy decent beans and grind them yourself daily. Of course, this isn't reasonable if you're a restaurant which serves a few dozen cups a day, which are just a small part of the whole "product". But for a dedicated coffee shop, which might serve more than a hundred per day, the costs are reasonable. I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself I didn't say that. I have a capsule machine myself. But I don't need to make better coffee to know that better coffee is made. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Sure, Nespresso is a great value for its price. But nothing in that process is better than what I'm describing. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Not restaurant, coffee shop. And I don't know what you consider "reasonable". The reason they do better is because they have different constraints in terms of space, marginal costs per cup and importance of the coffee to their line up, which allows them to invest more in it. Coffee simply doesn't have this. Grinding many days in advance, even if vacuum sealed, does have an effect on the taste.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  I think you missed the joke. Here in Seattle, it is trendy to look down on Starbucks, that is all. Totally agree about the McDonald's effect. When traveling I am often happy to enter the Mermaid's consistent embrace.
  - stephen_g 13y ago
    I don't look down on Starbucks because it's trendy, but because the coffee is poorer than even average cafés in my city... You can see just from looking in the grinders that their beans are over-roasted (which I guess improves consistency but destroys flavour) and they make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk.
    - na85 13y ago
      >and they make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk Pretty sure there's no syrup or milk in my coffee when they hand it to me over the counter at my local starbucks.
    - specialist 13y ago
      Mass market coffee. I have huge respect for what Starbucks does. For decades, most roasters got their start at Starbucks or Tullys. In the 10 million pounds of beans Starbucks buys every year, there's some percentage that must be awesome. Buying for myself, I'll get seasonals, varietals, vs the blends. Panama, harar, sumatra. Starbucks also sells whole bean light roast for tastes like my gf's, like the blond, which is sometimes available as drip over the counter. But mostly I buy either Herkimer or Lighthouse. They're indies, who obsess over the product, from purchasing thru roasting thru pulling the shots. herkimercoffe.com lighthouseroasters.com
- blueskin_ 13y ago
  I'm reminded of this comic: http://en.ilovecoffee.jp/posts/view/71 http://en.ilovecoffee.jp/posts/view/71 To me, good coffee means unadulterated as much as using high quality ingredients/equipment and having lots of caffeine.
bunderbunder 13y ago
> Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. Arguably, the first clause of that sentence is disproved by the second one. I'm not particularly fond of Starbucks coffee, either. But clearly plenty of people are, and their preferences are no less valid than mine.
- elohesra 13y ago
  This assumes that people are going there for the drinks. Given the statement by the parent poster, it seems that they're hanging around long after they've finished their drinks, so that's probably not the reason they're there.

ams6110 13y ago

Subjective, and goodness of coffee is not binary. Starbucks coffee is, IMO, better than what you find at most "affordable" restaurants, sandwich shops, diners, etc. If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they just want something better than Folgers. There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.

jules 13y ago
Many 3 star restaurants serve Nespresso. So yes, good coffee can be found in many places.
- icebraining 13y ago
  Nespresso isn't that great either.
  - jules 13y ago
    For judging what is good coffee, I'm gonna go with the taste of the chefs of those 3 star restaurants, rather than with icebraining on hacker news.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      If you actually read why they pick Nespresso, "the best taste" is not part of the reasons. They cite size, cost, consistency, usability, etc. "in our business, you spend so much time trying to be perfect with food and service that it's very hard to put the same dedication into a coffee program." Don't get me wrong, it's better than what I drink at home, but it's hardly great coffee.
      - jules 13y ago
        Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? Sure, it may not be the best coffee in the world, but even 3 star restaurants, which usually spare any expense to improve the quality do not think it is economical to make better coffee themselves. Do they think that Nespresso doesn't have good taste and just "consistency"? Of course not. Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way? I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself, but lets see what you're up against. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Being at home gives you no particular advantage. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Contrast this with, for instance, making bread. Bread tastes 10 times better when it is fresh. Unlike coffee, vacuum sealing a bread is impossible. So even if a factory managed to bake a bread with perfectly tuned parameters, by the time that bread is on your table it doesn't taste great anymore. Coffee simply doesn't have this.
        icebraining 13y ago
        Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? It doesn't matter what I think, you can read what they said. Of course it's not Starbucks quality level, but it's not great coffee, just good enough for the other qualities to win over better tasting coffees. Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way? Sure, the way multiple coffee shops do so here: you buy a decent Italian espresso machine (such as a La Marzocco), you get a few baristas with a couple of decades or more of experience serving coffee, buy decent beans and grind them yourself daily. Of course, this isn't reasonable if you're a restaurant which serves a few dozen cups a day, which are just a small part of the whole "product". But for a dedicated coffee shop, which might serve more than a hundred per day, the costs are reasonable. I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself I didn't say that. I have a capsule machine myself. But I don't need to make better coffee to know that better coffee is made. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Sure, Nespresso is a great value for its price. But nothing in that process is better than what I'm describing. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Not restaurant, coffee shop. And I don't know what you consider "reasonable". The reason they do better is because they have different constraints in terms of space, marginal costs per cup and importance of the coffee to their line up, which allows them to invest more in it. Coffee simply doesn't have this. Grinding many days in advance, even if vacuum sealed, does have an effect on the taste.
MartinCron 13y ago
I think you missed the joke. Here in Seattle, it is trendy to look down on Starbucks, that is all. Totally agree about the McDonald's effect. When traveling I am often happy to enter the Mermaid's consistent embrace.
- stephen_g 13y ago
  I don't look down on Starbucks because it's trendy, but because the coffee is poorer than even average cafés in my city... You can see just from looking in the grinders that their beans are over-roasted (which I guess improves consistency but destroys flavour) and they make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk.
  - na85 13y ago
    >and they make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk Pretty sure there's no syrup or milk in my coffee when they hand it to me over the counter at my local starbucks.
  - specialist 13y ago
    Mass market coffee. I have huge respect for what Starbucks does. For decades, most roasters got their start at Starbucks or Tullys. In the 10 million pounds of beans Starbucks buys every year, there's some percentage that must be awesome. Buying for myself, I'll get seasonals, varietals, vs the blends. Panama, harar, sumatra. Starbucks also sells whole bean light roast for tastes like my gf's, like the blond, which is sometimes available as drip over the counter. But mostly I buy either Herkimer or Lighthouse. They're indies, who obsess over the product, from purchasing thru roasting thru pulling the shots. herkimercoffe.com lighthouseroasters.com
blueskin_ 13y ago
I'm reminded of this comic: http://en.ilovecoffee.jp/posts/view/71 http://en.ilovecoffee.jp/posts/view/71 To me, good coffee means unadulterated as much as using high quality ingredients/equipment and having lots of caffeine.

bunderbunder 13y ago

> Starbucks doesn't sell good coffee and tea and yet they are packed. Arguably, the first clause of that sentence is disproved by the second one. I'm not particularly fond of Starbucks coffee, either. But clearly plenty of people are, and their preferences are no less valid than mine.

elohesra 13y ago
This assumes that people are going there for the drinks. Given the statement by the parent poster, it seems that they're hanging around long after they've finished their drinks, so that's probably not the reason they're there.