5 ms·

This is a beautiful post. I don't know these people personally but I've deep respect for those that understand inequality, and wish to pay it more than just lip

by lhnz 13y ago

This is a beautiful post. I don't know these people personally but I've deep respect for those that understand inequality, and wish to pay it more than just lip service. They are completely correct. You can't just create separate clubs for new cultures entering the system, you have to help them to connect into the dominant networks and that means legitimising their own culture in the dominant one. This is one of the reasons I've found it so disgusting how the tech community reacts around the site RapGenius: there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture which seems to aggravate every single PR problem they have. I remember a couple of weeks ago seeing a few people turn their noses up at poetry.rapgenius.com (and other networks on the same platform) but I can't think of a better way to let both cultures cross-pollinate. >> Networks equal access to jobs, funds, and deal flow, and the networks that run silicon valley are Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Google, HP, Ebay, Facebook, Apple, and PayPal. Is anybody else genuinely annoyed that sites such as angel.co use these as legitimising signals of worthiness?

michaelochurch 13y ago
there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture which seems to aggravate every single PR problem they have. Douchebag culture and black culture are radically different. First, there are several different black cultures: everything from upper-middle-class to working-class to poor African-American, plus several Afro-Caribbean cultures, plus a huge number of distinct African cultures. Douchebag culture (which is in vogue among the VC darlings, especially in the elite networks OP described) is a historically white phenomenon: popped collars, brogramming, saying shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard"). Douchebag culture is a dominant culture in the Valley (not the only one) and we need outlets like Valleywag to remind everyone how ridiculous it is.
- lhnz 13y ago
  >> Douchebag culture and black culture are radically different. You're talking about a bunch of white guys creating a rap site and telling me that they're not trying to channel black culture. If the stylings and bravado at RapGenius weren't related to culture from rap/hip-hop I'd be very surprised. In the past in the UK we used to have "Wigger" culture [0] and it actually was fairly similar... I don't think this anger has anything to do with being a douchebag. I've met people that dressed and spoke weirdly that have been perfectly nice people. I think that people recognise the style as douchebag because it's uncomfortable for them to see white people "acting black". [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger
  - Ryanmf 13y ago
    Stop. >> You're talking about a bunch of white guys creating a rap site and telling me that they're not trying to channel black culture. Oh, they're trying alright. Said douchebags are roughly as representative of black culture as Ali G was. Though it would seem they're not in on the joke. There is no "channelling" going on. You can be a person of any color who appreciates and celebrates hip hop culture without reducing its participants to cardboard cut-outs.
    - lhnz 13y ago
      There's no joke here. And little harm being done. RapGenius is a well loved by its market. If you believe that how people dress and speak defines their worthiness as a human being (and it seems you do) then go along your own way. I do not.
      - Ryanmf 13y ago
        This isn't complicated. There's a difference between identity and affectation. When your affectation conflates "acting black" (as if that's even a thing one can do) with "acting moronic", your affectation is intrinsically racist. And when you willfully adopt a racist affectation because despite being a Yale/Stanford Law grad you're apparently incapable of understanding how fucking offensive that is, I am not obligated to show you one single iota of respect. These guys don't represent anyone but themselves, and—of late—they're doing a poor job of it. (btw — I think Rap Genius is a great product. I hope its founders don't ruin it.)
        lhnz 13y ago
        >> This isn't complicated. Stop insinuating that I don't understand you. I understand you, I just disagree with you. >> There's a difference between identity and affectation. When your affectation conflates "acting black" (as if that's even a thing one can do) with "acting moronic", your affectation is intrinsically racist. Do you think that they believe they are acting moronically? Or is this perception of moronic behaviour your own? If it's the latter - which I expect it is - then you are projecting racism onto them. It's not something which is intrinsic - it requires the perceiver to have your value system. (My perception is that they are not acting like morons. And that it's all just good fun.) The problem I have with this whole argument is that even if a guy had a popped collar, was wearing dark sunglasses inside and kept saying everything was "baller", I'd prefer him infinitely over the guy that looked at him and declared him to be "moronic" and a "douchebag" because of his style. One is harmless but the other is something which to me signifies a close-minded asshole.
- JonnieCache 13y ago
  >shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard") People are saying that second one out loud? How? My mental image of what SV is like gets sillier by the day. I should draw a comic or something. We should start the same thing in the UK. I'm gonna put "RIP Esco" at the end of every presentation from now on. Showerman mode.
- pmarca 13y ago
  "Douchebag culture (which is in vogue among the VC darlings, especially in the elite networks OP described) is a historically white phenomenon: popped collars, brogramming, saying shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard"). Douchebag culture is a dominant culture in the Valley." I don't work with anyone who sounds IN ANY WAY like what you're describing. I won't go so far as to say I think you're making it up, but if this is real, it's doing a very good job of hiding from us at least.
joncooper 13y ago
I enjoyed the post. My take on the this is that tremendous amount of access politics in the Bay Area seem to revolve around where you went to school and what your pedigree is, and that since those are very highly correlated with the class you were born into, it ends up being emergently classist. Poor people mostly don't go to the schools that matriculate the players who participate in the traditional valley power scene. I don't buy that this scene is any more racist than the rest of the US, and probably would argue that it is less so. But in terms of class bias, I think considerably greater. And the low incidence of black and latino folks can be attributed significantly to their statistically-lower class distribution. As an anecdotal data point, I haven't met a lot of white people from lower-class backgrounds who are players in the Bay Area technology scene. Actually haven't met a lot of technology workers that are. This is in contrast to the environment when I worked in finance in NYC and London. I found that scene to be transparently racist and sexist, but there are very many powerful white dudes who started off poor and lower-class.
- pmarca 13y ago
  "As an anecdotal data point, I haven't met a lot of white people from lower-class backgrounds who are players in the Bay Area technology scene." Hi!
  - look_lookatme 13y ago
    I think it's safe to say the conditions and environment that enabled your rise in SV were much different than what exists now.
    - argonaut 13y ago
      Yes. It's easier for people from lower class backgrounds to break into SV than it was 1-2 decades ago. College admissions' focus on social justice has only increased over the past few decades (% of low-income students at the very top universities has only gone up). The proliferation of angel money means that it is actually easier for you to get the connections necessary for VC. In the past, VC was an even tighter and more exclusive circle than it is today.
dylandrop 13y ago
>> there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture Sorry, but the hatred for RapGenius doesn't come from programmers hating black culture. It's from the founders being fake, and as you said, douchebags. They're three white Yale graduates trying way too hard and ultimately being inauthentic. That's what's off-putting -- saying things like "baller-sourced" [1] just is an obvious ploy, appropriating words to give themselves fake credentials and personalities as rap aficionados. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo (~1:30)
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  If you have any evidence that their love of rap/hiphop is a front please share. I don't see how anybody who wasn't saturated in that culture would have even thought of rapgenius. If you dislike hiphop and its message, say so. If you have something stronger than a disapproval of white guys imbibing black culture, say so. Hiphop is art but the culture it promotes is far from healthy. Kids who can get into Yale are unlikely to be harmed by it but for the working class it's a negative; People would do better with boring bourgeois values.
rdtsc 13y ago
> I don't know these people personally but I've deep respect for those that understand inequality, and wish to pay it more than just lip service. That is how I found it. I started reading it because of a catchy title, then go into it and learned a bit more about the Valley culture. Personally I don't know much and am not usually interested in start-ups, but after being here for years, feels like I should know more so once in a while I would read stuff about it. Also this kind of reminded me of an older satirical post about the Valley and start-up culture -- "We'll Be Circling Back" by Harj Taggar http://paulgraham.com/circling.html http://paulgraham.com/circling.html
PavlovsCat 13y ago
> there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture I love rap. Heck, I even do it myself (badly and in German though, so no links). I still can't stand baller "culture", and before you think that's just a while middle-class dude not checking his privilege, read this: > What really hurts me sometimes is that there’s not a lot of consciousness in their music. There could be a whole lot more. Rapping is communicating-it should be an instrument for our liberation. We don’t have time to talk about being players and hustlers and gangsters. We didn’t come off of the slave ships that way. We need to become proud Africans again and stop running around in Shirley Temple curls talkin’ ‘bout how we’re pimps and players. A lot of the symbols that are in rap records and videos are indications of decadent consumerism and in a very real sense, those gold chains, hundred-dollar sneakers and T-shirts with a designer’s name on it underline how much they’ve become enslaved by the consumer mentality in the United States-consumer slaves. -- Assata Shakur It's not respectful to support self-harm because "that's just how the culture is", it's simply not knowing any decent rap and having no comparison. Rap is infected with bullshit, IMHO exactly because it could and should be such a powerful thing. Conscious rap is potentially dangerous; talking about bling and bitches is not. As for rapgenius, compare the obsession with it on HN with the "who? stop spamming us with ads" reactions on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=rapgenius http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=rapgenius - Hilarious.
hbags 13y ago
"Is anybody else genuinely annoyed that sites such as angel.co use these as legitimising signals of worthiness?" Absolutely. AngelList is all about institutional brands, and that's kind of sad. Teams are summarized by where they studied and worked, not what they accomplished, or what people think of them. It always struck me as a lazy 'old boys club' method of filtering people and ideas.

by lhnz 13y ago

michaelochurch 13y ago

there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture which seems to aggravate every single PR problem they have. Douchebag culture and black culture are radically different. First, there are several different black cultures: everything from upper-middle-class to working-class to poor African-American, plus several Afro-Caribbean cultures, plus a huge number of distinct African cultures. Douchebag culture (which is in vogue among the VC darlings, especially in the elite networks OP described) is a historically white phenomenon: popped collars, brogramming, saying shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard"). Douchebag culture is a dominant culture in the Valley (not the only one) and we need outlets like Valleywag to remind everyone how ridiculous it is.

lhnz 13y ago
>> Douchebag culture and black culture are radically different. You're talking about a bunch of white guys creating a rap site and telling me that they're not trying to channel black culture. If the stylings and bravado at RapGenius weren't related to culture from rap/hip-hop I'd be very surprised. In the past in the UK we used to have "Wigger" culture [0] and it actually was fairly similar... I don't think this anger has anything to do with being a douchebag. I've met people that dressed and spoke weirdly that have been perfectly nice people. I think that people recognise the style as douchebag because it's uncomfortable for them to see white people "acting black". [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger
- Ryanmf 13y ago
  Stop. >> You're talking about a bunch of white guys creating a rap site and telling me that they're not trying to channel black culture. Oh, they're trying alright. Said douchebags are roughly as representative of black culture as Ali G was. Though it would seem they're not in on the joke. There is no "channelling" going on. You can be a person of any color who appreciates and celebrates hip hop culture without reducing its participants to cardboard cut-outs.
  - lhnz 13y ago
    There's no joke here. And little harm being done. RapGenius is a well loved by its market. If you believe that how people dress and speak defines their worthiness as a human being (and it seems you do) then go along your own way. I do not.
    - Ryanmf 13y ago
      This isn't complicated. There's a difference between identity and affectation. When your affectation conflates "acting black" (as if that's even a thing one can do) with "acting moronic", your affectation is intrinsically racist. And when you willfully adopt a racist affectation because despite being a Yale/Stanford Law grad you're apparently incapable of understanding how fucking offensive that is, I am not obligated to show you one single iota of respect. These guys don't represent anyone but themselves, and—of late—they're doing a poor job of it. (btw — I think Rap Genius is a great product. I hope its founders don't ruin it.)
      - lhnz 13y ago
        >> This isn't complicated. Stop insinuating that I don't understand you. I understand you, I just disagree with you. >> There's a difference between identity and affectation. When your affectation conflates "acting black" (as if that's even a thing one can do) with "acting moronic", your affectation is intrinsically racist. Do you think that they believe they are acting moronically? Or is this perception of moronic behaviour your own? If it's the latter - which I expect it is - then you are projecting racism onto them. It's not something which is intrinsic - it requires the perceiver to have your value system. (My perception is that they are not acting like morons. And that it's all just good fun.) The problem I have with this whole argument is that even if a guy had a popped collar, was wearing dark sunglasses inside and kept saying everything was "baller", I'd prefer him infinitely over the guy that looked at him and declared him to be "moronic" and a "douchebag" because of his style. One is harmless but the other is something which to me signifies a close-minded asshole.
JonnieCache 13y ago
>shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard") People are saying that second one out loud? How? My mental image of what SV is like gets sillier by the day. I should draw a comic or something. We should start the same thing in the UK. I'm gonna put "RIP Esco" at the end of every presentation from now on. Showerman mode.
pmarca 13y ago
"Douchebag culture (which is in vogue among the VC darlings, especially in the elite networks OP described) is a historically white phenomenon: popped collars, brogramming, saying shit like YOLO and WHPH ("work hard play hard"). Douchebag culture is a dominant culture in the Valley." I don't work with anyone who sounds IN ANY WAY like what you're describing. I won't go so far as to say I think you're making it up, but if this is real, it's doing a very good job of hiding from us at least.

joncooper 13y ago

I enjoyed the post. My take on the this is that tremendous amount of access politics in the Bay Area seem to revolve around where you went to school and what your pedigree is, and that since those are very highly correlated with the class you were born into, it ends up being emergently classist. Poor people mostly don't go to the schools that matriculate the players who participate in the traditional valley power scene. I don't buy that this scene is any more racist than the rest of the US, and probably would argue that it is less so. But in terms of class bias, I think considerably greater. And the low incidence of black and latino folks can be attributed significantly to their statistically-lower class distribution. As an anecdotal data point, I haven't met a lot of white people from lower-class backgrounds who are players in the Bay Area technology scene. Actually haven't met a lot of technology workers that are. This is in contrast to the environment when I worked in finance in NYC and London. I found that scene to be transparently racist and sexist, but there are very many powerful white dudes who started off poor and lower-class.

pmarca 13y ago
"As an anecdotal data point, I haven't met a lot of white people from lower-class backgrounds who are players in the Bay Area technology scene." Hi!
- look_lookatme 13y ago
  I think it's safe to say the conditions and environment that enabled your rise in SV were much different than what exists now.
  - argonaut 13y ago
    Yes. It's easier for people from lower class backgrounds to break into SV than it was 1-2 decades ago. College admissions' focus on social justice has only increased over the past few decades (% of low-income students at the very top universities has only gone up). The proliferation of angel money means that it is actually easier for you to get the connections necessary for VC. In the past, VC was an even tighter and more exclusive circle than it is today.

dylandrop 13y ago

>> there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture Sorry, but the hatred for RapGenius doesn't come from programmers hating black culture. It's from the founders being fake, and as you said, douchebags. They're three white Yale graduates trying way too hard and ultimately being inauthentic. That's what's off-putting -- saying things like "baller-sourced" [1] just is an obvious ploy, appropriating words to give themselves fake credentials and personalities as rap aficionados. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo (~1:30)

barry-cotter 13y ago
If you have any evidence that their love of rap/hiphop is a front please share. I don't see how anybody who wasn't saturated in that culture would have even thought of rapgenius. If you dislike hiphop and its message, say so. If you have something stronger than a disapproval of white guys imbibing black culture, say so. Hiphop is art but the culture it promotes is far from healthy. Kids who can get into Yale are unlikely to be harmed by it but for the working class it's a negative; People would do better with boring bourgeois values.

rdtsc 13y ago

> I don't know these people personally but I've deep respect for those that understand inequality, and wish to pay it more than just lip service. That is how I found it. I started reading it because of a catchy title, then go into it and learned a bit more about the Valley culture. Personally I don't know much and am not usually interested in start-ups, but after being here for years, feels like I should know more so once in a while I would read stuff about it. Also this kind of reminded me of an older satirical post about the Valley and start-up culture -- "We'll Be Circling Back" by Harj Taggar http://paulgraham.com/circling.html http://paulgraham.com/circling.html

PavlovsCat 13y ago

> there's this undercurrent of hatred for baller/rap/black (so-called "douchebag") culture I love rap. Heck, I even do it myself (badly and in German though, so no links). I still can't stand baller "culture", and before you think that's just a while middle-class dude not checking his privilege, read this: > What really hurts me sometimes is that there’s not a lot of consciousness in their music. There could be a whole lot more. Rapping is communicating-it should be an instrument for our liberation. We don’t have time to talk about being players and hustlers and gangsters. We didn’t come off of the slave ships that way. We need to become proud Africans again and stop running around in Shirley Temple curls talkin’ ‘bout how we’re pimps and players. A lot of the symbols that are in rap records and videos are indications of decadent consumerism and in a very real sense, those gold chains, hundred-dollar sneakers and T-shirts with a designer’s name on it underline how much they’ve become enslaved by the consumer mentality in the United States-consumer slaves. -- Assata Shakur It's not respectful to support self-harm because "that's just how the culture is", it's simply not knowing any decent rap and having no comparison. Rap is infected with bullshit, IMHO exactly because it could and should be such a powerful thing. Conscious rap is potentially dangerous; talking about bling and bitches is not. As for rapgenius, compare the obsession with it on HN with the "who? stop spamming us with ads" reactions on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=rapgenius http://slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=rapgenius - Hilarious.

hbags 13y ago

"Is anybody else genuinely annoyed that sites such as angel.co use these as legitimising signals of worthiness?" Absolutely. AngelList is all about institutional brands, and that's kind of sad. Teams are summarized by where they studied and worked, not what they accomplished, or what people think of them. It always struck me as a lazy 'old boys club' method of filtering people and ideas.