4 ms·

>I have written quite a bit of Haskell That is a very common claim from people posting misconceptions that could only arise from second-hand info and a lack of

by asdasf 13y ago

>I have written quite a bit of Haskell That is a very common claim from people posting misconceptions that could only arise from second-hand info and a lack of direct experience. I have a very hard time believing it given that you claim haskell is large and complex. >Also, I like C++ :) I won't hold that against you. >what you think is wrong with my belief Well, everything you just mentioned except the horrible compile times. Haskell is a relatively small language, and is not complex at all. In fact it is quite simple, and very consistent. I don't know what you mean about horrible error messages, and you do not need to learn any gotchas to get good performance. What you need to learn is very simple, very clearly spelled out in the docs, and is no more than you need to learn in any other language. Avoiding unnecessary laziness is no more difficult than avoiding unnecessary strictness. I can't think of a single "sharp edge" haskell has, I suspect we must have different ideas of what a sharp edge is.

CJefferson 13y ago
> That is a very common claim from people posting misconceptions that could only arise from second-hand info and a lack of direct experience. Do you think that I, and an apparently large number of other people on the internet, spend our time insulting Haskell without having used it? That some great anti-Haskell conspiracy is being waged by evil groups unknown? I haven't written large enough Haskell programs to have performance problems myself, but I work with people who have. People who have to keep an empty monad around because removing it doubles the run-time of the program, and make substansal changes to get programs into an acceptable (<16GB) amount of memory. Also, there are plenty of horrible error messages. Having a random google, here's the first one that comes up. While I can just about figure out what it means, it is several levels more complex than anything that would ever come out of Java. Stackoverflow is full of Haskell questions which are "I don't understand this compile-time error I am getting". http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-August/046371.html http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-August/04...
- the_af 13y ago
  > People who have to keep an empty monad around because removing it doubles the run-time of the program I'm genuinely interested in this. Can you link to an article or blog post explaining the problem? Thanks! :)
  - CJefferson 13y ago
    It was a PhD student's program, but the problem was verified by more than one knowledgable Haskell programmer. I'll see if I can get them to write it up somewhere!
- asdasf 13y ago
  >Do you think that I, and an apparently large number of other people on the internet, spend our time insulting Haskell without having used it? That some great anti-Haskell conspiracy is being waged by evil groups unknown? No, it seems like a relatively small group. And I did not suggest ill intentions, merely ignorance. Do you seriously think "some people repeat second hand info about topics they lack experience with" requires a "great conspiracy waged by evil groups unknown"? >I haven't written large enough Haskell programs to have performance problems myself So, you are confirming exactly what I said, that you don't have experience and are repeating second hand info. Why then did you feel the need to invent some sort of conspiracy theory nonsense as a rationale for your behavior? >People who have to keep an empty monad around because removing it doubles the run-time of the program That statement demonstrates such an obvious lack of understanding that I am almost able to believe you are ill intentioned. That makes absolutely no sense, it is like me saying "C is bad because I have to keep an empty function around or it doubles run time". >make substansal changes to get programs into an acceptable (<16GB) amount of memory That is too vague to be meaningful. Were they working with >16GB of data? Did they just have a memory leak? Do you understand that memory leaks can be created in every language? >Also, there are plenty of horrible error messages. Having a random google, here's the first one that comes up Are you trolling? That is a trivially simple error message. It is a simple type mismatch, the compiler expected X, it got Y. Which is precisely what it says. >Stackoverflow is full of Haskell questions which are "I don't understand this compile-time error I am getting". Stackoverflow is full of everylanguage questions of "I don't understand this error I am getting". That is completely meaningless.

by asdasf 13y ago

CJefferson 13y ago

> That is a very common claim from people posting misconceptions that could only arise from second-hand info and a lack of direct experience. Do you think that I, and an apparently large number of other people on the internet, spend our time insulting Haskell without having used it? That some great anti-Haskell conspiracy is being waged by evil groups unknown? I haven't written large enough Haskell programs to have performance problems myself, but I work with people who have. People who have to keep an empty monad around because removing it doubles the run-time of the program, and make substansal changes to get programs into an acceptable (<16GB) amount of memory. Also, there are plenty of horrible error messages. Having a random google, here's the first one that comes up. While I can just about figure out what it means, it is several levels more complex than anything that would ever come out of Java. Stackoverflow is full of Haskell questions which are "I don't understand this compile-time error I am getting". http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-August/046371.html http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2008-August/04...

the_af 13y ago
> People who have to keep an empty monad around because removing it doubles the run-time of the program I'm genuinely interested in this. Can you link to an article or blog post explaining the problem? Thanks! :)
- CJefferson 13y ago
  It was a PhD student's program, but the problem was verified by more than one knowledgable Haskell programmer. I'll see if I can get them to write it up somewhere!
asdasf 13y ago
>Do you think that I, and an apparently large number of other people on the internet, spend our time insulting Haskell without having used it? That some great anti-Haskell conspiracy is being waged by evil groups unknown? No, it seems like a relatively small group. And I did not suggest ill intentions, merely ignorance. Do you seriously think "some people repeat second hand info about topics they lack experience with" requires a "great conspiracy waged by evil groups unknown"? >I haven't written large enough Haskell programs to have performance problems myself So, you are confirming exactly what I said, that you don't have experience and are repeating second hand info. Why then did you feel the need to invent some sort of conspiracy theory nonsense as a rationale for your behavior? >People who have to keep an empty monad around because removing it doubles the run-time of the program That statement demonstrates such an obvious lack of understanding that I am almost able to believe you are ill intentioned. That makes absolutely no sense, it is like me saying "C is bad because I have to keep an empty function around or it doubles run time". >make substansal changes to get programs into an acceptable (<16GB) amount of memory That is too vague to be meaningful. Were they working with >16GB of data? Did they just have a memory leak? Do you understand that memory leaks can be created in every language? >Also, there are plenty of horrible error messages. Having a random google, here's the first one that comes up Are you trolling? That is a trivially simple error message. It is a simple type mismatch, the compiler expected X, it got Y. Which is precisely what it says. >Stackoverflow is full of Haskell questions which are "I don't understand this compile-time error I am getting". Stackoverflow is full of everylanguage questions of "I don't understand this error I am getting". That is completely meaningless.