4 ms·

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

by gr3yh47 13y ago

normloman 13y ago
You're not getting it. It's not correct because it's plural. It's correct because most people agree that it's correct. If every english speaker on earth simultaneously decided that "xivuewq" was the correct reflexive form, that's what we would use. Now in my experience, even when people use the singular "they," most people use "themselves" as the reflexive in that context. A few might use "themself," but they are in the minority. Best to use the widely accepted "themselves" in formal writing, then.
- gr3yh47 13y ago
  Actually, you're not getting it. While the use of 'them' and 'themselves' is increasingly acceptable informally, it still violates basic rules of plurality that most people agree upon, and is thus formally incorrect.
  - normloman 13y ago
    No. you're still not getting it. Violating basic rules that everyone agrees on happens all the time. It's called irregularity, and English is full of it. Irregular plurals are common, and correct, because they have fallen into common usage.
    - gr3yh47 13y ago
      You are incorrectly equivocating informally acceptable with formally correct.
    - normloman 13y ago
      What I'm trying to tell you is there's no formally correct in English. There's no Academy of English that tells people how to speak. What's right is what most people say. Most people say "themselves."
      - gr3yh47 13y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English
jonnathanson 13y ago
"Them" is a plural word in the first place, so attempting to hybridize it with the singular and form "themself" is incorrect and awkward. There is no singular "them." In the case where one uses "them" to refer to a singular subject of indeterminate gender, "them" doesn't actually become singular; rather, it's simply being used as a free variable. It's increasingly acceptable to use "them" to refer to a singular subject when the gender is unknown. All but the strictest prescriptivists would now accept that usage. But if a writer picks "them" over "him/her," he should use it with internal, self-referential consistency.
- gr3yh47 13y ago
  > There is no singular "them." exactly why it is incorrect to use in the singular. and this is the difference between formal and informal. there are rules that are widely accepted (formal) and then there are actual usages that are widely accepted (informal)
  - jonnathanson 13y ago
    This is the view commonly understood and immediately sensible. It's the view I was taught and grew up with, and it's the view to which I still adhere when writing (fwiw, I'm an adamant user of "himself" or "herself" for the singular). In this view, "them" is acceptable on an informal, common-usage basis. That said, linguists in recent years have been working out formal methods of acceptance for "themselves" as a singular-referring pronoun when the gender of the subject is unknown. See my previous comments about "them" as a free variable; this is the formalist's argument for the acceptability of "them." It is an argument advanced by some of the more influential logicians of the mid to late 20th century, such as W.V.O. Quine. It's an argument based more in symbolic logic than in traditional linguistics, but it's gained a fair amount of currency in the high-nerddom of syntax. It's by no means an established or generally accepted stance, however. The general, traditionally formal rule is that "them" is always plural, and the construction "singular subject = them" is a bit like saying "1 = >1," i.e., illogical.

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

by gr3yh47 13y ago

"Themselves" is correct because it is plural. What of the singular?

You're not getting it. It's not correct because it's plural. It's correct because most people agree that it's correct. If every english speaker on earth simultaneously decided that "xivuewq" was the correct reflexive form, that's what we would use. Now in my experience, even when people use the singular "they," most people use "themselves" as the reflexive in that context. A few might use "themself," but they are in the minority. Best to use the widely accepted "themselves" in formal writing, then.

gr3yh47 13y ago
Actually, you're not getting it. While the use of 'them' and 'themselves' is increasingly acceptable informally, it still violates basic rules of plurality that most people agree upon, and is thus formally incorrect.
- normloman 13y ago
  No. you're still not getting it. Violating basic rules that everyone agrees on happens all the time. It's called irregularity, and English is full of it. Irregular plurals are common, and correct, because they have fallen into common usage.
  - gr3yh47 13y ago
    You are incorrectly equivocating informally acceptable with formally correct.
  - normloman 13y ago
    What I'm trying to tell you is there's no formally correct in English. There's no Academy of English that tells people how to speak. What's right is what most people say. Most people say "themselves."
    - gr3yh47 13y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English

jonnathanson 13y ago

"Them" is a plural word in the first place, so attempting to hybridize it with the singular and form "themself" is incorrect and awkward. There is no singular "them." In the case where one uses "them" to refer to a singular subject of indeterminate gender, "them" doesn't actually become singular; rather, it's simply being used as a free variable. It's increasingly acceptable to use "them" to refer to a singular subject when the gender is unknown. All but the strictest prescriptivists would now accept that usage. But if a writer picks "them" over "him/her," he should use it with internal, self-referential consistency.

gr3yh47 13y ago
> There is no singular "them." exactly why it is incorrect to use in the singular. and this is the difference between formal and informal. there are rules that are widely accepted (formal) and then there are actual usages that are widely accepted (informal)
- jonnathanson 13y ago
  This is the view commonly understood and immediately sensible. It's the view I was taught and grew up with, and it's the view to which I still adhere when writing (fwiw, I'm an adamant user of "himself" or "herself" for the singular). In this view, "them" is acceptable on an informal, common-usage basis. That said, linguists in recent years have been working out formal methods of acceptance for "themselves" as a singular-referring pronoun when the gender of the subject is unknown. See my previous comments about "them" as a free variable; this is the formalist's argument for the acceptability of "them." It is an argument advanced by some of the more influential logicians of the mid to late 20th century, such as W.V.O. Quine. It's an argument based more in symbolic logic than in traditional linguistics, but it's gained a fair amount of currency in the high-nerddom of syntax. It's by no means an established or generally accepted stance, however. The general, traditionally formal rule is that "them" is always plural, and the construction "singular subject = them" is a bit like saying "1 = >1," i.e., illogical.