5 ms·

"himself" is the technically correct word for singular reflexive when the gender is unknown

by gr3yh47 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
theorique 13y ago
Yes, it sounds better. The rest of these words sound ... not quite "barbaric", but definitely uneducated and ignorant. I'd definitely recommend avoiding them if you are writing something professional.
70forty 13y ago
By what authority is this the technically correct word? Some dictionary or grammar book? Where did they get their authority to determine this? Really the only way to decide what is "correct" where language usage is concerned is to see how people actually speak/write, AKA a descriptive approach. Do a corpus study and then you'll have some basis to make a claim about what is and isn't standard usage.
- kjhughes 13y ago
  Thankfully professional lexicographers balance both emerging and traditional usage norms in their recommendations.
- joshuapants 13y ago
  >Really the only way to decide what is "correct" where language usage is concerned is to see how people actually speak/write, AKA a descriptive approach. This is tangentially related: the English language is a bit unusual in how flexible it is to change along with common usage. Other languages can have their usage dictated by the government; Germany, France, and Japan have all had noted language reforms that in some cases radically changed the language. That is not to say, however, that all their citizens automatically start following these reforms perfectly because lifelong habits are hard to break.
  - 70forty 13y ago
    Do you know some examples of this for French, German or Japanese? I know about the French Academy, for example. I would have assumed their influence didn't extend much beyond orthographic/spelling conventions.
- gr3yh47 13y ago
  Saying I can only make a claim if I have done a certain study is somewhat absurd, especially when you are, with that suggestion, claiming to be the authority on how to determine what is correct.
  - normloman 13y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description ^^^ Read it for your own good.
    - gr3yh47 13y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English ^^^ Read it for your own good
      - normloman 13y ago
        And I'm sure if you asked editors at big publishing houses or english teachers, most would tell you to prefer "themselves." Themself is a new construction that hasn't caught on. Purveyors of "standard" English have to err on the side of conservatism.
  - 70forty 13y ago
    I gave you a method for determining standard usage.
losvedir 13y ago
I downvoted this comment because I don't think it brings anything to the discussion. I'm pretty sure it's obvious to every HN reader (and the post author themself) that "he" is the "correct" gender-unknown pronoun, along with "himself". The submitted post is interesting because a lot of us prefer they/them for the gender-neutral 3rd person singular pronoun[0], and it raises an interesting corner case. I had to think about it for a bit, but I think "themself" sounds most natural to me. [0] Why default to "he" when gender is unknown? Is correct number but incorrect gender better than "they", which is incorrect number but correct gender? "They" is natural to almost all native English speakers and has been used in that capacity in writing since at least Chaucer. edit: Hm, now I wish I hadn't downvoted. Sorry about that. I suppose it's helpful for non-native HN speakers to know the "correct" word for academic writing, as much as it irritates me that that is what's considered correct.
- gr3yh47 13y ago
  I don't think it's necessarily obvious or common knowledge today as it would have been maybe a decade or so ago. I also don't take for granted that the author of the post knows this since he doesn't mention this current correct usage at all, even to say that it seems undesirable or unsuitable. The above notwithstanding, i certainly don't disagree that informal English has morphed towards usage of 'they' as the general gender neutral pronoun in all cases, as I myself just had to go back and correct "they don't" to "he doesn't" in the paragraph above when referring to the writer, even though his gender is clear from his name. However I personally have no issue with 'himself' being the correct pronoun in the singular gender neutral reflexive for formal English.
- DArcMattr 13y ago
  I got a lot of pushback from my thesis advisor when I was going with the gender-neutral approach. This was over 10 years ago, and not much has changed since then by the looks of it.
spellboots 13y ago
It used to be technically correct. Today, it is technically incorrect, because society today acknowledges that women are full, living, breathing human beings and may in fact be referred to as such in polite conversation.
- autodidakto 13y ago
  What is this "women" creature that so many men speak so passionately of?
  - omonra 13y ago
    CES booth babes are apparently predominantly 'women'.
- gr3yh47 13y ago
  When you know you're referring to a woman, sure. But when the gender is unclear, it shouldn't be a feminism issue. This entire argument has always seemed ridiculous to me, and I mean really, go look at the Spanish language...
logfromblammo 13y ago
The best kind of correct. Thanks to feminist grammarians, "herself" is also correct. Or else you'll have to check your privilege, or some equally horrible fate. Though this suggests that the default gender for unknown animate third person pronouns should remain consistent throughout your entire written work. The writer should probably just pick his own gender unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. One such reason could be the conditional probability for the subject being male or female, depending on what you already know about him. Engineer? Him. Elementary schoolteacher? Her. Someone got a mammogram? Her. Someone got a Darwin award? Him. If the conditional probability is 50% either way, you just pick your own gender, as above.

"himself" is the technically correct word for singular reflexive when the gender is unknown

by gr3yh47 13y ago

"himself" is the technically correct word for singular reflexive when the gender is unknown

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

theorique 13y ago

Yes, it sounds better. The rest of these words sound ... not quite "barbaric", but definitely uneducated and ignorant. I'd definitely recommend avoiding them if you are writing something professional.

70forty 13y ago

By what authority is this the technically correct word? Some dictionary or grammar book? Where did they get their authority to determine this? Really the only way to decide what is "correct" where language usage is concerned is to see how people actually speak/write, AKA a descriptive approach. Do a corpus study and then you'll have some basis to make a claim about what is and isn't standard usage.

kjhughes 13y ago
Thankfully professional lexicographers balance both emerging and traditional usage norms in their recommendations.
joshuapants 13y ago
>Really the only way to decide what is "correct" where language usage is concerned is to see how people actually speak/write, AKA a descriptive approach. This is tangentially related: the English language is a bit unusual in how flexible it is to change along with common usage. Other languages can have their usage dictated by the government; Germany, France, and Japan have all had noted language reforms that in some cases radically changed the language. That is not to say, however, that all their citizens automatically start following these reforms perfectly because lifelong habits are hard to break.
- 70forty 13y ago
  Do you know some examples of this for French, German or Japanese? I know about the French Academy, for example. I would have assumed their influence didn't extend much beyond orthographic/spelling conventions.
gr3yh47 13y ago
Saying I can only make a claim if I have done a certain study is somewhat absurd, especially when you are, with that suggestion, claiming to be the authority on how to determine what is correct.
- normloman 13y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description ^^^ Read it for your own good.
  - gr3yh47 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_written_English ^^^ Read it for your own good
    - normloman 13y ago
      And I'm sure if you asked editors at big publishing houses or english teachers, most would tell you to prefer "themselves." Themself is a new construction that hasn't caught on. Purveyors of "standard" English have to err on the side of conservatism.
- 70forty 13y ago
  I gave you a method for determining standard usage.

losvedir 13y ago

I downvoted this comment because I don't think it brings anything to the discussion. I'm pretty sure it's obvious to every HN reader (and the post author themself) that "he" is the "correct" gender-unknown pronoun, along with "himself". The submitted post is interesting because a lot of us prefer they/them for the gender-neutral 3rd person singular pronoun[0], and it raises an interesting corner case. I had to think about it for a bit, but I think "themself" sounds most natural to me. [0] Why default to "he" when gender is unknown? Is correct number but incorrect gender better than "they", which is incorrect number but correct gender? "They" is natural to almost all native English speakers and has been used in that capacity in writing since at least Chaucer. edit: Hm, now I wish I hadn't downvoted. Sorry about that. I suppose it's helpful for non-native HN speakers to know the "correct" word for academic writing, as much as it irritates me that that is what's considered correct.

gr3yh47 13y ago
I don't think it's necessarily obvious or common knowledge today as it would have been maybe a decade or so ago. I also don't take for granted that the author of the post knows this since he doesn't mention this current correct usage at all, even to say that it seems undesirable or unsuitable. The above notwithstanding, i certainly don't disagree that informal English has morphed towards usage of 'they' as the general gender neutral pronoun in all cases, as I myself just had to go back and correct "they don't" to "he doesn't" in the paragraph above when referring to the writer, even though his gender is clear from his name. However I personally have no issue with 'himself' being the correct pronoun in the singular gender neutral reflexive for formal English.
DArcMattr 13y ago
I got a lot of pushback from my thesis advisor when I was going with the gender-neutral approach. This was over 10 years ago, and not much has changed since then by the looks of it.

spellboots 13y ago

It used to be technically correct. Today, it is technically incorrect, because society today acknowledges that women are full, living, breathing human beings and may in fact be referred to as such in polite conversation.

autodidakto 13y ago
What is this "women" creature that so many men speak so passionately of?
- omonra 13y ago
  CES booth babes are apparently predominantly 'women'.
gr3yh47 13y ago
When you know you're referring to a woman, sure. But when the gender is unclear, it shouldn't be a feminism issue. This entire argument has always seemed ridiculous to me, and I mean really, go look at the Spanish language...

logfromblammo 13y ago

The best kind of correct. Thanks to feminist grammarians, "herself" is also correct. Or else you'll have to check your privilege, or some equally horrible fate. Though this suggests that the default gender for unknown animate third person pronouns should remain consistent throughout your entire written work. The writer should probably just pick his own gender unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. One such reason could be the conditional probability for the subject being male or female, depending on what you already know about him. Engineer? Him. Elementary schoolteacher? Her. Someone got a mammogram? Her. Someone got a Darwin award? Him. If the conditional probability is 50% either way, you just pick your own gender, as above.