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A point you repeatedly make in your OP is that everyone uses torture -- not just the bad guys -- and that it's just a tool to extract information. So it seems c

A point you repeatedly make in your OP is that everyone uses torture -- not just the bad guys -- and that it's just a tool to extract information. So it seems certainly relevant that your selection of examples are all of bad guys committing torture on the "good guys" or otherwise innocent victims. Fringe, especially in its earlier "monster of the week" seasons, has a very clear distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad guys". Since only the bad guys are committing torture, it seems more plausible that the writers of Fringe think that the audience will view torture as something bad people do. However, it does not support your point that torture is a tool used by everyone. There's one plot line in season 5 where Peter tortures an Observer. But it was depicted as a moral failing of Peter to commit torture, opposite what you suggest in your OP ("In fact it’s often portrayed as a moral failing to not do anything it takes to get the results you need."). The entire plot line is very dark as Peter's grief over his daughter takes him down a bad path. It is supposed to be (and was for me) uncomfortable to watch.

aychedee 13y ago
Yes. Everyone does! * Even Peter. You've just said as much. And it is shown as a tool. I just pulled those examples from the first season using the plot synopse to try and trigger my memory. I obviously didn't have time to go and rewatch 130 hours of television to satisfy a HN commenter who was trying to make a rhetorical point. Many of the characters are ambiguous and are eventually revealed to be acting in the best interests of the "their universe". If you really want to disprove this do your own research. Go through and categorise every instance of pain inflicted on a person in a helpless situation. Are there more or less of these scenes than in the X-Files? Are they betrayed as something only a truly evil sadist would perform or are they more of a tool of the trade? Why do you think the sci-fi FBI genre has shifted? * Apart from dear Astrid of course, statement may contain some hyperbole.
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  > If you really want to disprove this do your own research. You're the one that made a claim, it is not unreasonable to expect that you can back this up with examples. So far the examples you've provided don't show that everyone resorts to torture. And instances in your examples come from the bad guys doing something clearly, well, bad. Again, if the image of torture is a bad thing in your mind then all violence should be absent from every media because it normalizes all violence. > If you really want to disprove this do your own research. Go through and categorise every instance of pain inflicted on a person in a helpless situation. Are there more or less of these scenes than in the X-Files? And here you're extending the definition of torture to contain every act of violence against a helpless person. Given it's duration, I suspect that X-Files would have more instances of this. Using your model, disprove me.
- mattlutze 13y ago
  An argument should be credible by itself, not only in the context of counterarguments. A statement without its own proof is quite useless; it is not unreasonable for someone to ask for the evidence you used to get to your conclusion. If that data is "I have a gut feeling from watching two shows and thinking about it," then so be it. Just say that. Hand-wavy grandstands are fine, but don't pass something off as deeper than that if it isn't.

aychedee 13y ago

Yes. Everyone does! * Even Peter. You've just said as much. And it is shown as a tool. I just pulled those examples from the first season using the plot synopse to try and trigger my memory. I obviously didn't have time to go and rewatch 130 hours of television to satisfy a HN commenter who was trying to make a rhetorical point. Many of the characters are ambiguous and are eventually revealed to be acting in the best interests of the "their universe". If you really want to disprove this do your own research. Go through and categorise every instance of pain inflicted on a person in a helpless situation. Are there more or less of these scenes than in the X-Files? Are they betrayed as something only a truly evil sadist would perform or are they more of a tool of the trade? Why do you think the sci-fi FBI genre has shifted? * Apart from dear Astrid of course, statement may contain some hyperbole.

Jtsummers 13y ago
> If you really want to disprove this do your own research. You're the one that made a claim, it is not unreasonable to expect that you can back this up with examples. So far the examples you've provided don't show that everyone resorts to torture. And instances in your examples come from the bad guys doing something clearly, well, bad. Again, if the image of torture is a bad thing in your mind then all violence should be absent from every media because it normalizes all violence. > If you really want to disprove this do your own research. Go through and categorise every instance of pain inflicted on a person in a helpless situation. Are there more or less of these scenes than in the X-Files? And here you're extending the definition of torture to contain every act of violence against a helpless person. Given it's duration, I suspect that X-Files would have more instances of this. Using your model, disprove me.
mattlutze 13y ago
An argument should be credible by itself, not only in the context of counterarguments. A statement without its own proof is quite useless; it is not unreasonable for someone to ask for the evidence you used to get to your conclusion. If that data is "I have a gut feeling from watching two shows and thinking about it," then so be it. Just say that. Hand-wavy grandstands are fine, but don't pass something off as deeper than that if it isn't.