4 ms·

It's simple: the immigration system rewards advanced degrees. While Americans often pursue Ph.Ds because of a desire to pursue academia or pure research, most

It's simple: the immigration system rewards advanced degrees. While Americans often pursue Ph.Ds because of a desire to pursue academia or pure research, most people coming to the US for educations are looking for a way to stay in the US, and there are H1-B slots specifically for those with advanced degrees from US universities. Further, the life of a graduate student on stipend is remarkably similar in lifestyle comforts to working in their native countries, and they will be rewarded with better jobs in their native countries even if they do not stay in the US. That is what fuels the graduate student STEM system.

pcrh 13y ago
A very significant proportion of PhD students (and therefore postdocs) are non-US. Despite their meager pay (in relation to the pay that equivalently qualified people get in other sectors) the money they can afford to send money home to support their parents is not insignificant, since the purchasing power of $200-500/mo is substantially greater in China or India than in the US. This is great for them and their families, and provides cheap labor for US research establishment. The fact that they are mostly on H1B visas also prevents them from having much negotiating power with their employers, often resulting in lower-than-market pay and conditions. It also explains (I believe) at least in part why US citizens less often choose to work in biomedical research.
VLM 13y ago
You can generalize that to all immigration systems not just "the". I analyzed the Canadian point system many years ago and as a recent BS grad I had more hoops to jump thru than a recent MS grad would have. Whats easier, becoming fluent in French or a MSCS? If you want to be able to work anywhere in the world, its much easier with postgrad degrees than just a bachelors. From memory, at least to work in Canada in CS/IT, it boiled down to a BS holder needs a formal job offer whereas a MS holder pretty much open arms you'll find a job once you get here, no need to find a job before moving. A couple years experience and I've caught up in the points race with the MS holder... This may have changed over more than a decade. I have family commitments so I can't, but I wish I could, which leads to research and daydreaming.
HarryHirsch 13y ago
{{citation needed}} What if people came to the US simply to get an education? Let's face it, the education at good American universities is very, very good, and anyone with a PhD degree from Harvard, Berkeley or UIUC has a good shot at getting a decent position back home. For H1-B purposes, a US Masters degree is sufficient, and there are more than plenty such programs to go around. (Why are there so many taught masters? It's because they are cheap for the university to offer, and lesser places are in urgent need of income from tuition.) No need to pain oneself with five years of serious PhD work when a year or two of taught masters will do the job. On the contrary, the road to a green card is complicated, it really shouldn't be done through H1-B because then you are at the mercy of the employer, and with a PhD from somewhere decent it's best done though E1/E2 with national interest waiver, no H1-B needed. (If you know what I'm talking about it's because you are a lawyer or applied for a Green Card. May God have mercy on your soul.) It's more likely that Americans don't shoot for PhD in the sciences because it's hard work that isn't well rewarded at the end. The market is speaking.
- tostitos1979 13y ago
  I thought most PhDs go the route of E1 outstanding researcher, which requires a job. Is E1-NIW common?
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    E1 - Persons with extraordinary ability doesn't require a job offer, neither does E2-NIW. Yes, E2-NIW is rather common because it's a catch-all category that does not require sponsorship.
- ebiester 13y ago
  Many more get the Master's degree than the Ph.D, but many of those who can, do opt into Ph.D programs (within STEM) because of how many Ph.D programs offer stipends. Wealthy students go for MS degrees, of course. (And as I am partnered to someone going through this, let me say that alphabet soup can give me a migraine. :)
SiVal 13y ago
Add to this some cultural issues. One of my relatives got a science PhD in the US to fulfill the dreams of his Chinese parents. It's not that he was fascinated by the subject, nor did he need immigration help (he had a green card.) It's just that he, the only son, had an obligation to his long-suffering parents to add to the status of the family as judged by other Chinese.

pcrh 13y ago

A very significant proportion of PhD students (and therefore postdocs) are non-US. Despite their meager pay (in relation to the pay that equivalently qualified people get in other sectors) the money they can afford to send money home to support their parents is not insignificant, since the purchasing power of $200-500/mo is substantially greater in China or India than in the US. This is great for them and their families, and provides cheap labor for US research establishment. The fact that they are mostly on H1B visas also prevents them from having much negotiating power with their employers, often resulting in lower-than-market pay and conditions. It also explains (I believe) at least in part why US citizens less often choose to work in biomedical research.

VLM 13y ago

You can generalize that to all immigration systems not just "the". I analyzed the Canadian point system many years ago and as a recent BS grad I had more hoops to jump thru than a recent MS grad would have. Whats easier, becoming fluent in French or a MSCS? If you want to be able to work anywhere in the world, its much easier with postgrad degrees than just a bachelors. From memory, at least to work in Canada in CS/IT, it boiled down to a BS holder needs a formal job offer whereas a MS holder pretty much open arms you'll find a job once you get here, no need to find a job before moving. A couple years experience and I've caught up in the points race with the MS holder... This may have changed over more than a decade. I have family commitments so I can't, but I wish I could, which leads to research and daydreaming.

HarryHirsch 13y ago

{{citation needed}} What if people came to the US simply to get an education? Let's face it, the education at good American universities is very, very good, and anyone with a PhD degree from Harvard, Berkeley or UIUC has a good shot at getting a decent position back home. For H1-B purposes, a US Masters degree is sufficient, and there are more than plenty such programs to go around. (Why are there so many taught masters? It's because they are cheap for the university to offer, and lesser places are in urgent need of income from tuition.) No need to pain oneself with five years of serious PhD work when a year or two of taught masters will do the job. On the contrary, the road to a green card is complicated, it really shouldn't be done through H1-B because then you are at the mercy of the employer, and with a PhD from somewhere decent it's best done though E1/E2 with national interest waiver, no H1-B needed. (If you know what I'm talking about it's because you are a lawyer or applied for a Green Card. May God have mercy on your soul.) It's more likely that Americans don't shoot for PhD in the sciences because it's hard work that isn't well rewarded at the end. The market is speaking.

tostitos1979 13y ago
I thought most PhDs go the route of E1 outstanding researcher, which requires a job. Is E1-NIW common?
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  E1 - Persons with extraordinary ability doesn't require a job offer, neither does E2-NIW. Yes, E2-NIW is rather common because it's a catch-all category that does not require sponsorship.
ebiester 13y ago
Many more get the Master's degree than the Ph.D, but many of those who can, do opt into Ph.D programs (within STEM) because of how many Ph.D programs offer stipends. Wealthy students go for MS degrees, of course. (And as I am partnered to someone going through this, let me say that alphabet soup can give me a migraine. :)

SiVal 13y ago

Add to this some cultural issues. One of my relatives got a science PhD in the US to fulfill the dreams of his Chinese parents. It's not that he was fascinated by the subject, nor did he need immigration help (he had a green card.) It's just that he, the only son, had an obligation to his long-suffering parents to add to the status of the family as judged by other Chinese.