> The effectiveness of torture is besides the point. Except it's not. Those that are willing to turn to torture don't have a moral issue with it, it would not

> The effectiveness of torture is besides the point. Except it's not. Those that are willing to turn to torture don't have a moral issue with it, it would not be just another tool if they did. The effectiveness of the tool is an argument people like that are interested in. In just the same way as those that do have moral issues with torture don't care if it was very effective, your arguments need to be tailored to the audience. Given a varied audience, you hit all the points. Torture doesn't work for extracting information, it's effectiveness is basically useless. That is, if you are torturing to get information in the first place.