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You have no idea what it is like in life. You have a guess but it is entirly wrong. But I do. Simply put I've been there, and no there not hundreds of leads. Th

by makeqaz 13y ago

You have no idea what it is like in life. You have a guess but it is entirly wrong. But I do. Simply put I've been there, and no there not hundreds of leads. The people you 'torture' are not random guys, They were linked to the case in question. And the information they give is always always somthing you know and something new, They of course don't know which is which. Otherwise the information is usless and you will need endless amount of time and money to sort it. Again. Your ideas about real life are entirely wrong.

Zigurd 13y ago
One specific example of "torture works" would completely overturn everything that is known about the use of torture by the US. You are so very adamant that one would think you have that example ready to go. And yet you curiously stop before giving any examples, even though that invites thinking you might not be truthful. Strange.
- ctdonath 13y ago
  Proving one is the intended target of bigotry is usually unhelpful. ETA: Downvote demonstrates the point.
  - Zigurd 13y ago
    Bigotry? Bigotry against torturers? Seriously?
    - ctdonath 13y ago
      Bigotry is defining a group as inherently evil, and rejecting any sensible discussion with a member thereof on the grounds that someone is (or sympathizes with) one. Never mind whether he may have saved lives thru "enhanced interrogation", your curiosity about what he did exists only insofar as his admission thereof justifies your labeling him as evil (no room for good-faith discourse possibly resulting in "hey, maybe you're not so bad after all").
      - Zigurd 13y ago
        I find it amazing that there is pro-torture propaganda on TV, never mind that in the real world it is the darkest of the dark crimes against humanity. I find it amazing that the psychologists who designed tortures and the people at Guantanamo who carried out torture are walking free. Shouldn't they be on the run from the same kind of borderless manhunt as WWII era war criminals? You say I'm not leaving room for good faith discourse. I asked for an example of torture saying a life. I asked because, time after time, in all forums, no such example has ever come up. The real problem is that torture has been allowed to approach too close to where it's considered OK to use.
      - TheCoelacanth 13y ago
        I don't see anyone claiming that torturers are inherently evil. I see people claiming that act of torture is inherently evil. I'm perfectly open to the idea that someone who has tortured someone else isn't evil, but torture is always an evil act.
gutnor 13y ago
And in your world how do you prove you do not know something ? I guess ... more torture ?
PavlovsCat 13y ago
Maybe the fact that you did such things leads you to require to rationalize them. Just about everybody has reasons and is convinced they're correct, that is true even for Charles Manson. A poem by Erich Fried comes to mind... "don't doubt those who say they're afraid, but be afraid of those who say they know no doubt" -- I guess doubly so if they put torture in quotes.
glenra 13y ago
Where is this "there" that you've been? Are you saying that you, personally, have used torture to resolve a ticking time bomb scenario? Can you be more specific? Why would it matter that the info they give is "something you know and something new"? How would that stop the "something new" part from being something that was invented to get you to stop torturing them? Of course the most realistic lies will include elements of truth and reference other stuff you think you already know. And why would merely being "linked to the case in question" mean you can KNOW they have info they aren't willing to volunteer that would help at all, much less that would crack the case? (Sometimes a taxi driver is just a taxi driver.)
mcguire 13y ago
"They were linked to the case in question." Not everyone "linked to the case" is a criminal, terrorist, despicable sub-human scum, or what-have-you. That is not a popular idea in many areas of the military or law enforcement.
DominikR 13y ago
We all have witnessed how effective torture was in Guantanamo, with so many prisoners being tortured and released after they have been found not guilty.
4891 13y ago
I'm very curious to hear more. Contrary to this article, I don't see any evidence of "pro-torture propaganda", because everyone in this thread and almost every source I find is anti-torture. The only interesting source arguing for the effectiveness of torture was this: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Torture%2C_interrogation_and_intelligence http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Torture%2C_interrogation_and_intel... It seems like torture would work, not in a "ticking time-bomb: scenario, but in a situation where you had a long time to corroborate intelligence gathered from torture with other sources. Interrogate the captive on stuff you already know about, and if they lie, punish them with worse forms of torture. And if people are prone to losing their minds under torture - you can merely submit them to one session of brutal torture, then leave them for a few weeks or months before resuming normal interrogation - with the threat of more torture if they don't comply.

by makeqaz 13y ago

Zigurd 13y ago

One specific example of "torture works" would completely overturn everything that is known about the use of torture by the US. You are so very adamant that one would think you have that example ready to go. And yet you curiously stop before giving any examples, even though that invites thinking you might not be truthful. Strange.

ctdonath 13y ago
Proving one is the intended target of bigotry is usually unhelpful. ETA: Downvote demonstrates the point.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  Bigotry? Bigotry against torturers? Seriously?
  - ctdonath 13y ago
    Bigotry is defining a group as inherently evil, and rejecting any sensible discussion with a member thereof on the grounds that someone is (or sympathizes with) one. Never mind whether he may have saved lives thru "enhanced interrogation", your curiosity about what he did exists only insofar as his admission thereof justifies your labeling him as evil (no room for good-faith discourse possibly resulting in "hey, maybe you're not so bad after all").
    - Zigurd 13y ago
      I find it amazing that there is pro-torture propaganda on TV, never mind that in the real world it is the darkest of the dark crimes against humanity. I find it amazing that the psychologists who designed tortures and the people at Guantanamo who carried out torture are walking free. Shouldn't they be on the run from the same kind of borderless manhunt as WWII era war criminals? You say I'm not leaving room for good faith discourse. I asked for an example of torture saying a life. I asked because, time after time, in all forums, no such example has ever come up. The real problem is that torture has been allowed to approach too close to where it's considered OK to use.
    - TheCoelacanth 13y ago
      I don't see anyone claiming that torturers are inherently evil. I see people claiming that act of torture is inherently evil. I'm perfectly open to the idea that someone who has tortured someone else isn't evil, but torture is always an evil act.

gutnor 13y ago

And in your world how do you prove you do not know something ? I guess ... more torture ?

PavlovsCat 13y ago

Maybe the fact that you did such things leads you to require to rationalize them. Just about everybody has reasons and is convinced they're correct, that is true even for Charles Manson. A poem by Erich Fried comes to mind... "don't doubt those who say they're afraid, but be afraid of those who say they know no doubt" -- I guess doubly so if they put torture in quotes.

glenra 13y ago

Where is this "there" that you've been? Are you saying that you, personally, have used torture to resolve a ticking time bomb scenario? Can you be more specific? Why would it matter that the info they give is "something you know and something new"? How would that stop the "something new" part from being something that was invented to get you to stop torturing them? Of course the most realistic lies will include elements of truth and reference other stuff you think you already know. And why would merely being "linked to the case in question" mean you can KNOW they have info they aren't willing to volunteer that would help at all, much less that would crack the case? (Sometimes a taxi driver is just a taxi driver.)

mcguire 13y ago

"They were linked to the case in question." Not everyone "linked to the case" is a criminal, terrorist, despicable sub-human scum, or what-have-you. That is not a popular idea in many areas of the military or law enforcement.

DominikR 13y ago

We all have witnessed how effective torture was in Guantanamo, with so many prisoners being tortured and released after they have been found not guilty.

4891 13y ago

I'm very curious to hear more. Contrary to this article, I don't see any evidence of "pro-torture propaganda", because everyone in this thread and almost every source I find is anti-torture. The only interesting source arguing for the effectiveness of torture was this: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Torture%2C_interrogation_and_intelligence http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Torture%2C_interrogation_and_intel... It seems like torture would work, not in a "ticking time-bomb: scenario, but in a situation where you had a long time to corroborate intelligence gathered from torture with other sources. Interrogate the captive on stuff you already know about, and if they lie, punish them with worse forms of torture. And if people are prone to losing their minds under torture - you can merely submit them to one session of brutal torture, then leave them for a few weeks or months before resuming normal interrogation - with the threat of more torture if they don't comply.