5 ms·

I do voluntary work with the sort of kids this law has been designed to target - the ones who walk around a council estate causing trouble, because there's nowh

I do voluntary work with the sort of kids this law has been designed to target - the ones who walk around a council estate causing trouble, because there's nowhere for them to go but home, where they can look forward to crowded houses and parents who are high. There are two approaches to dealing with that problem. The first is laws like this, which allow the police to prosecute them simply for walking the streets in a group, and set them up for life with a criminal record. That will inevitably lead to worse crimes in the future as they find themselves unable to work because of that record. Alternatively the government could stop cutting funding for organisations that try to provide a place where they can go and be children without causing others trouble. Youth centres are shutting down due to a lack of funding - the one I volunteer at only functions because its funded by a local church, and even then it only just scrapes by. Honestly, I don't really know where I'm going with this, other than needing to rant about the fucked up approach this government is taking with their "Big Society", carefully focused on making sure the poor are criminalised, and the rich don't have to worry about supporting them.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Sharlin 13y ago
This is basically again an instance of the ages-old problem of symptoms being easier to treat than the disease. And that's assuming the disease is even identified correctly in the first place.
- loceng 13y ago
  The dis-ease is the current distribution of resources, which is a symptom or side-effect of capitalism evolving to its extremities - those systems can be influenced to incentivize different behaviours and patterns though to correct the dis-ease. If people believe resources are scarce, then there may be an issue. If people believe we have access - through human will, passion, and ingenuity - to the resources of the whole universe, then scarcity is only an illusion and we need not allow this fear to perpetuate, as it only leads to unnecessary suffering through fear of survival, and fear-mongers being able to control populations and create wars or at minimum perpetuate the suffering of one group for the gain of what they consider their own population.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 13y ago
    This is a myth. Please refer to Deirdre N. McCloskey's work for a thorough debunking. The first two volumes of the proposed six volume set are available from amazon, the one you'll be interested in is 'Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can't Explain the Modern World'.
    - loceng 13y ago
      Could you clarify or specify what it is you say is a myth and why it's a myth? A brief of what Deirdre N. McCloskey says would be very helpful and much appreciated - thanks. Edit: Reading the Amazon short description, "[...] The result was an explosion in economic growth and proof that economic change depends less on foreign trade, investment, or material causes, and a whole lot more on ideas and what people believe. Or so says Deirdre N. McCloskey [...]" That is relating to distribution of resources, albeit local resources.
jackgavigan 13y ago
"..the sort of kids this law has been designed to target - the ones who walk around a council estate causing trouble, because there's nowhere for them to go but home, where they can look forward to crowded houses and parents who are high." I've long been of the opinion that poor parenting (and/or an abdication of responsibility on the part of the parents) is a major contributing factor to teenage delinquency. What are your thoughts, based on your experience of working with these kids?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- TallGuyShort 13y ago
  I've long been of the opinion that poor patenting (and/or an abdication of responsibility on the part of the parents) is a major contributing factor to an awful lot of society's ills...
  - tyomero 13y ago
    Anyone who thinks parenting practices -other than the most extreme- shape behavior should think twice and look at the evidence. The blank slate by Steven Pinker might be a good starting point. There's plenty of evidence that the effects of parenting are generally smaller than we would like them to be, again with a few exceptions.
    - bigfudge 13y ago
      Except that what many of us here would consider extreme are actually pretty common. Estimates for the prevalence of domestic violence and sexual abuse are difficult to measure accurately, but are conservatively > 10% in the population at large and much higher in the deprived communities which will be targeted by these laws.
      - mercer 13y ago
        Having spent significant time of my youth in a bad neighbourhood (with awesome, stable parents though), and having spent much of my later life with people on the edges of society, I can confirm this. It's reached a point where I'm shocked to not eventually hear some awful stories about childhood of these people.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Sharlin 13y ago

This is basically again an instance of the ages-old problem of symptoms being easier to treat than the disease. And that's assuming the disease is even identified correctly in the first place.

loceng 13y ago
The dis-ease is the current distribution of resources, which is a symptom or side-effect of capitalism evolving to its extremities - those systems can be influenced to incentivize different behaviours and patterns though to correct the dis-ease. If people believe resources are scarce, then there may be an issue. If people believe we have access - through human will, passion, and ingenuity - to the resources of the whole universe, then scarcity is only an illusion and we need not allow this fear to perpetuate, as it only leads to unnecessary suffering through fear of survival, and fear-mongers being able to control populations and create wars or at minimum perpetuate the suffering of one group for the gain of what they consider their own population.
- TheSpiceIsLife 13y ago
  This is a myth. Please refer to Deirdre N. McCloskey's work for a thorough debunking. The first two volumes of the proposed six volume set are available from amazon, the one you'll be interested in is 'Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can't Explain the Modern World'.
  - loceng 13y ago
    Could you clarify or specify what it is you say is a myth and why it's a myth? A brief of what Deirdre N. McCloskey says would be very helpful and much appreciated - thanks. Edit: Reading the Amazon short description, "[...] The result was an explosion in economic growth and proof that economic change depends less on foreign trade, investment, or material causes, and a whole lot more on ideas and what people believe. Or so says Deirdre N. McCloskey [...]" That is relating to distribution of resources, albeit local resources.

jackgavigan 13y ago

"..the sort of kids this law has been designed to target - the ones who walk around a council estate causing trouble, because there's nowhere for them to go but home, where they can look forward to crowded houses and parents who are high." I've long been of the opinion that poor parenting (and/or an abdication of responsibility on the part of the parents) is a major contributing factor to teenage delinquency. What are your thoughts, based on your experience of working with these kids?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
TallGuyShort 13y ago
I've long been of the opinion that poor patenting (and/or an abdication of responsibility on the part of the parents) is a major contributing factor to an awful lot of society's ills...
- tyomero 13y ago
  Anyone who thinks parenting practices -other than the most extreme- shape behavior should think twice and look at the evidence. The blank slate by Steven Pinker might be a good starting point. There's plenty of evidence that the effects of parenting are generally smaller than we would like them to be, again with a few exceptions.
  - bigfudge 13y ago
    Except that what many of us here would consider extreme are actually pretty common. Estimates for the prevalence of domestic violence and sexual abuse are difficult to measure accurately, but are conservatively > 10% in the population at large and much higher in the deprived communities which will be targeted by these laws.
    - mercer 13y ago
      Having spent significant time of my youth in a bad neighbourhood (with awesome, stable parents though), and having spent much of my later life with people on the edges of society, I can confirm this. It's reached a point where I'm shocked to not eventually hear some awful stories about childhood of these people.