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I hope that 'the Merkel effect' will be significant here, in that it was not an issue until those with power were directly and obviously affected. All too ofte

I hope that 'the Merkel effect' will be significant here, in that it was not an issue until those with power were directly and obviously affected. All too often it feels like 'the people' is a separate set to that of those in positions of executive power, with a bit of luck the smart wording of Bernie Sanders will ingratiate previously unbothered elements of the powers who can actually do something about stuff. That said, I don't think 'spy on everyone, except the powerful' is a step up, if anything it's worse.

a3n 13y ago
Not spying on Congress would be a step up though. Congress has oversite on the NSA, not the other way around. When the extent of the Snowden leaks became apparent, I called one of my Senators, Udall. As I was speaking to the aide on the phone, I had a sudden, horrible moment of clarity: This communication, this very phone call, this act of democracy being practiced between me and my Senator, was being monitored, cataloged and analyzed by the NSA. I was furious. [[And, to the NSA spy reading this: Shame on you. Fucking shame on you.]]
- BgSpnnrs 13y ago
  I can abnsolutely understand that realisation, and I suppose I am not sure of my thinking regarding the whole paradigm of a powerful select being immune to the tentacles of the surveillance state - I just think it is all very, very bad. I am not clever enough or articulate enough to explain these things properly.
- lostcolony 13y ago
  Even better, if you had pulled up an internet article over the NSA spying right before calling your senator, the NSA could even corroborate the two sources together to know that you were talking to your senator about the NSA program (even if all they collect is 'just metadata'). I can't even fathom how anyone can claim this can be allowed in a democracy.
  - Stubb 13y ago
    Well, you do get to choose between two candidates. Both of whom admittedly support the implementation of a surveillance state.
- kashkhan 13y ago
  Where would you draw the line on spying? Any american citizen is potentially a criminal threatening the republic.
  - mhurron 13y ago
    > Where would you draw the line on spying? At none.
  - a3n 13y ago
    The people who wrote the Constitution drew the line at "specific suspicion." Amendment IV http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and NO WARRANTS SHALL ISSUE, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION, AND PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING THE PLACE TO BE SEARCHED, AND THE PERSONS OR THINGS TO BE SEIZED. That's where I would draw the line.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Perhaps one way all of us can make the point here is that when we want to speak to our elected representatives, we insist on doing so face to face, explaining that we don't want a digital 3 way with the NSA.
  - a3n 13y ago
    And you'll leave your phone home too, right?
    - momerath 13y ago
      ...and not drive there.
rhizome 13y ago
To be sure, a big question would be whether they relayed anything to elected leaders.
- mschuster91 13y ago
  Or, better: if the NSA collects "blackmail" evidence to keep the elected leaders/officials "in check" to avoid more legislative issues...
  - kashkhan 13y ago
    Hey we do this in our banana republics all the time. It would be foolish to have a super-power and then not use it to gain more power.
    - WalterSear 13y ago
      http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6067/Y1ID100Z/posters/peter-steiner-why-carry-malpractice-insurance-if-you-don-t-malpractice-once-in-a-while-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6067/Y...
throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago
"That said, I don't think 'spy on everyone, except the powerful' is a step up, if anything it's worse." Even in the midst of his panic, Winston was too much taken aback to be able to hold his tongue. 'You can turn it off!' he said. 'Yes,' said O'Brien, 'we can turn it off. We have that privilege.'
smoyer 13y ago
Ever notice how when you get upgraded to a first class seat on an airplane, it takes about 5 seconds to feel superior to those in the business and coach classes? I think part of that is human nature.
- eric_the_read 13y ago
  The only time it happened to me, I was too busy enjoying the experience to feel superior to anyone else.

a3n 13y ago

Not spying on Congress would be a step up though. Congress has oversite on the NSA, not the other way around. When the extent of the Snowden leaks became apparent, I called one of my Senators, Udall. As I was speaking to the aide on the phone, I had a sudden, horrible moment of clarity: This communication, this very phone call, this act of democracy being practiced between me and my Senator, was being monitored, cataloged and analyzed by the NSA. I was furious. [[And, to the NSA spy reading this: Shame on you. Fucking shame on you.]]

BgSpnnrs 13y ago
I can abnsolutely understand that realisation, and I suppose I am not sure of my thinking regarding the whole paradigm of a powerful select being immune to the tentacles of the surveillance state - I just think it is all very, very bad. I am not clever enough or articulate enough to explain these things properly.
lostcolony 13y ago
Even better, if you had pulled up an internet article over the NSA spying right before calling your senator, the NSA could even corroborate the two sources together to know that you were talking to your senator about the NSA program (even if all they collect is 'just metadata'). I can't even fathom how anyone can claim this can be allowed in a democracy.
- Stubb 13y ago
  Well, you do get to choose between two candidates. Both of whom admittedly support the implementation of a surveillance state.
kashkhan 13y ago
Where would you draw the line on spying? Any american citizen is potentially a criminal threatening the republic.
- mhurron 13y ago
  > Where would you draw the line on spying? At none.
- a3n 13y ago
  The people who wrote the Constitution drew the line at "specific suspicion." Amendment IV http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and NO WARRANTS SHALL ISSUE, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION, AND PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING THE PLACE TO BE SEARCHED, AND THE PERSONS OR THINGS TO BE SEIZED. That's where I would draw the line.
alan_cx 13y ago
Perhaps one way all of us can make the point here is that when we want to speak to our elected representatives, we insist on doing so face to face, explaining that we don't want a digital 3 way with the NSA.
- a3n 13y ago
  And you'll leave your phone home too, right?
  - momerath 13y ago
    ...and not drive there.

rhizome 13y ago

To be sure, a big question would be whether they relayed anything to elected leaders.

mschuster91 13y ago
Or, better: if the NSA collects "blackmail" evidence to keep the elected leaders/officials "in check" to avoid more legislative issues...
- kashkhan 13y ago
  Hey we do this in our banana republics all the time. It would be foolish to have a super-power and then not use it to gain more power.
  - WalterSear 13y ago
    http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6067/Y1ID100Z/posters/peter-steiner-why-carry-malpractice-insurance-if-you-don-t-malpractice-once-in-a-while-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6067/Y...

throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago

"That said, I don't think 'spy on everyone, except the powerful' is a step up, if anything it's worse." Even in the midst of his panic, Winston was too much taken aback to be able to hold his tongue. 'You can turn it off!' he said. 'Yes,' said O'Brien, 'we can turn it off. We have that privilege.'

smoyer 13y ago

Ever notice how when you get upgraded to a first class seat on an airplane, it takes about 5 seconds to feel superior to those in the business and coach classes? I think part of that is human nature.

eric_the_read 13y ago
The only time it happened to me, I was too busy enjoying the experience to feel superior to anyone else.