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NSA statement does not deny 'spying' on members of Congress
- BgSpnnrs 13y agoI hope that 'the Merkel effect' will be significant here, in that it was not an issue until those with power were directly and obviously affected. All too often it feels like 'the people' is a separate set to that of those in positions of executive power, with a bit of luck the smart wording of Bernie Sanders will ingratiate previously unbothered elements of the powers who can actually do something about stuff. That said, I don't think 'spy on everyone, except the powerful' is a step up, if anything it's worse.
- a3n 13y agoNot spying on Congress would be a step up though. Congress has oversite on the NSA, not the other way around. When the extent of the Snowden leaks became apparent, I called one of my Senators, Udall. As I was speaking to the aide on the phone, I had a sudden, horrible moment of clarity: This communication, this very phone call, this act of democracy being practiced between me and my Senator, was being monitored, cataloged and analyzed by the NSA. I was furious. [[And, to the NSA spy reading this: Shame on you. Fucking shame on you.]]
- BgSpnnrs 13y agoI can abnsolutely understand that realisation, and I suppose I am not sure of my thinking regarding the whole paradigm of a powerful select being immune to the tentacles of the surveillance state - I just think it is all very, very bad. I am not clever enough or articulate enough to explain these things properly.
- lostcolony 13y agoEven better, if you had pulled up an internet article over the NSA spying right before calling your senator, the NSA could even corroborate the two sources together to know that you were talking to your senator about the NSA program (even if all they collect is 'just metadata'). I can't even fathom how anyone can claim this can be allowed in a democracy.
- Stubb 13y agoWell, you do get to choose between two candidates. Both of whom admittedly support the implementation of a surveillance state.
- kashkhan 13y agoWhere would you draw the line on spying? Any american citizen is potentially a criminal threatening the republic.
- mhurron 13y ago> Where would you draw the line on spying? At none.
- a3n 13y agoThe people who wrote the Constitution drew the line at "specific suspicion." Amendment IV http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and NO WARRANTS SHALL ISSUE, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, SUPPORTED BY OATH OR AFFIRMATION, AND PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING THE PLACE TO BE SEARCHED, AND THE PERSONS OR THINGS TO BE SEIZED. That's where I would draw the line.
- alan_cx 13y agoPerhaps one way all of us can make the point here is that when we want to speak to our elected representatives, we insist on doing so face to face, explaining that we don't want a digital 3 way with the NSA.
- rhizome 13y agoTo be sure, a big question would be whether they relayed anything to elected leaders.
- mschuster91 13y agoOr, better: if the NSA collects "blackmail" evidence to keep the elected leaders/officials "in check" to avoid more legislative issues...
- kashkhan 13y agoHey we do this in our banana republics all the time. It would be foolish to have a super-power and then not use it to gain more power.
- WalterSear 13y agohttp://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6067/Y1ID100Z/posters/peter-steiner-why-carry-malpractice-insurance-if-you-don-t-malpractice-once-in-a-while-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg http://imgc.artprintimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6067/Y...
- throwaway_yy2Di 13y ago"That said, I don't think 'spy on everyone, except the powerful' is a step up, if anything it's worse." Even in the midst of his panic, Winston was too much taken aback to be able to hold his tongue. 'You can turn it off!' he said. 'Yes,' said O'Brien, 'we can turn it off. We have that privilege.'
- smoyer 13y agoEver notice how when you get upgraded to a first class seat on an airplane, it takes about 5 seconds to feel superior to those in the business and coach classes? I think part of that is human nature.
- eric_the_read 13y agoThe only time it happened to me, I was too busy enjoying the experience to feel superior to anyone else.
- a3n 13y ago"Members of Congress have the same privacy protections as all US persons." So, yes then.
- zacinbusiness 13y agoSo let's say that the NSA says they will stop spying on us. Why should we believe them?
- salient 13y agoNo, but friends of NSA like Mike Rogers have said in public that "he's not worried about this spying, because NSA doesn't spy on him, because he's not a 'bad guy'". Of course, I don't think even he believes that, because he knows exactly what NSA is doing, but it's good to know for a fact that NSA does spy on US Congress, too. Maybe this information will make the undecided politicians to take the right side.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- Theodores 13y agoI would like my British MP to ask in parliament if GCHQ are spying on members of the U.S. Congress. This is because we already know that the NSA get GCHQ to do little favours for them to get around domestic spying laws. I was thinking I just need to cut and paste the senator's question and get my MP to ask it, however, does anyone here have any details to wording or other ideas so that a weasel word response isn't all I get?
- DanBC 13y agoWhoever is asked the question would refuse to answer stating national security. Stuff about GCHQ is normally handled by the http://isc.independent.gov.uk/ http://isc.independent.gov.uk/
- Theodores 13y agoI think that answers my question. However, it is like the two guards in conundrum: "One guard always tells the truth and the other guard always lies. You don't know which one is honest and which one is the liar..." So it still must be possible to phrase the question in such a way the truth is revealed, where 'one guard' is the spy agency and the 'other guard' is the politician and the 'national security' response.
- alan_cx 13y agoWell, if we in the UK are some how responsible for Euro spying on behalf of our US masters, then presumably GCHQ is the centre for all spying on all US citizens who come to Europe. I kinda think its almost a silly question. Of course we are, we are just waiting for the relevant leak to confirm it. UK wise, I reckon its possibly more worthwhile to ask about GCHQ spying on MP's, UK MEPs, and members of the House of Lords. However, we actually do know that UK security services do spy on elected officials as we know a hell of a lot about what they got up to in Norther Ireland. IIRC, Americans were historically critical of how we treated Irish freedom fighters..... or was it terrorists? But were mainland British folk concerned because they spied on Northern Irish politicians? Not that I know of. Then look at the reaction of British politicians to the Snowden leaks. Pretty muted. Again, I suspect that they are kept in line by implied blackmail. What might be vaguely useful is if we had a set of standard well formatted questions, that people can copy and use to send to our MPs.
- hardwaresofton 13y agoI'd hate to be one of the congress members that this took by surprise (assuming there ARE any that actually did not know) -- you'd be quickly made aware of your lack of power.
- rlx0x 13y agoThe NSA is one of the most powerful organizations on this planet, and the only people that could actually be kind of a threat to them, are members of congress. So in other words: the only people on this planet, who have the ability to do something against the total surveillance of the world... are exempt from surveillance. Who the fuck, would believe that?
- Zigurd 13y agoNot only that, but with typical rates of addiction, adultery, domestic violence, pedophilia, drunk-driving, tax cheating, etc. there is huge potential to build a "caucus of the compromised." Perhaps enough to swing any vote that needs swinging.
- nickff 13y agoQuis custodiet ipsos custodes?
- fiatmoney 13y agoThey wiretapped all of Washington DC, "by accident", in an election year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-broke-privacy-rules-thousands-of-times-per-year-audit-finds/2013/08/15/3310e554-05ca-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-br...
- puppetmaster3 13y agoAre you saying that a they would use that for political power and not 'security of the state'? Shocking, shocking I say /s.
- Rogerh91 13y agohttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama_n_3473538.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/russ-tice-nsa-obama... "Russ Tice, a former intelligence analyst who in 2005 blew the whistle on what he alleged was massive unconstitutional domestic spying across multiple agencies, claimed Wednesday that the NSA had ordered wiretaps on phones connected to then-Senate candidate Barack Obama in 2004. Speaking on "The Boiling Frogs Show," Tice claimed the intelligence community had ordered surveillance on a wide range of groups and individuals, including high-ranking military officials, lawmakers and diplomats." definition of irony
- coldcode 13y agoOne thing that scares me about the NSA is that they are essentially a part of the executive branch. Imagine what a president from either party could do with that kind of power versus the other party or even just people they want to destroy. Now who can stop this?
- logicchains 13y agoThe American people. Isn't this kind of thing the reason why your constitution gives you guys guns? If a tyrant took over, if all else failed you could always just shoot them.
- nickff 13y agoThe tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. Thomas Jefferson http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff109180.html#kjOhyeIwa2yo7uuL.99 http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff109180....
- dllthomas 13y agoI recommend everyone read up on the context of that quote - the letter it was from and the events it was regarding - rather than make assumptions.
- spoiledtechie 13y agoI really hate that this senator cares about only himself being wiretapped. Rather than caring about his constituents. This is the kind of selfish behavior that is appalling.
- hyperbovine 13y agoActually Sanders is generally one of the less execrable members of that august body. His letter (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/letter-to-nsa http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/letter-to-nsa) makes it abundantly clear that he's very alarmed about NSA spying on all Americans. This letter indicates a tactic meant to stoke other legislators' outrage ahead of the upcoming Congress, as opposed to a strategy of opposing NSA spying specifically on lawmakers.
- MisterBastahrd 13y agoIf you're that ignorant about Sanders, I hope that you are not an American. He's about as pro-liberty as it gets, unlike say Rand Paul, who only gives a crap when it suits him politically.
- pstuart 13y agoAre you trolling or just trying to live up to your username?
- codex 13y agoThe real question is: has an human looked at Congressional metadata, or are they likely to do so? This question was not asked because, given the data protections in place, the answer is likely no.
- betterunix 13y agoHow is that the real question? The potential abuses are enormous even if no human has looked at the metadata yet. What if there is a vote next month to reduce the NSA's funding -- might the metadata be examined then, just to see if any congressmen are having affairs? What if Senator Wyden tries to run for president in 2016 -- might the NSA take a look at who he's been talking to? The fact that the data is being stored at all is cause for concern.
- tptacek 13y agoIt can't deny that. It is engaged in mass surveillance of US citizens. Members of Congress use Google Mail just like everyone else. To deny that they may have collected information on a Congressperson just sets them up for yet another scandal. Presented with that question, NSA gave the only answer it could possibly have given, short of (once again) lying directly to Congress. That's not all that interesting of a result.
- samstave 13y agoOut of curiosity; what is the official mail system of the USG?
- tptacek 13y agoI don't know; I won't work with USG IT. I know the DoD has their own system.
- srl 13y ago> I won't work with USG IT This may be none of anyone's business, but I'm curious enough to try asking anyway: is this a moral objection of some sort, or something more mundane (i.e. inconvenient regulatory burden)?
- x0054 13y agoThe way the question was asked by Sanders, the answer would be necessarily YES. Of course, the NSA can not answer YES, because [insert mention of 9/11 and national security argument here, wave a flag, if possible, while doing so], so they did the next best thing, made a lengthy statement that states absolutely nothing.
- f_salmon 13y ago> Members of Congress have the same privacy protections as all US persons. In other words: almost none to zero.