5 ms·

This is great for Rap Genius. But this truly saddens me as well. I cannot for the life of me understand how they were able to fix ten-of-thousands of backlinks

by bushido 13y ago

This is great for Rap Genius. But this truly saddens me as well. I cannot for the life of me understand how they were able to fix ten-of-thousands of backlinks and other shady practices and get back in the good graces of Google so darn quickly. Frankly I do not know a single other legitimate(+with good traffic) site who was able to get back in the good graces of Google after algorithm updates without spending many many months researching any possible reasons to be penalized and fixing it themselves after repeatedly asking google for help to no avail. Could it be that Rap Genius was special because it has Andreessen Horowitz? Sure seems that way. I am not going to stop using Google, but I am inclined to use them lesser now. I would like to hear why, how rap genius was fixed this and what this means for other people who get penalized from Matt Cutts though!!

sillysaurus2 13y ago
They're back on Google, but keep in mind that they're seemingly not in a great position. Googling "justin beiber lyrics" doesn't show Rapgenius. Neither does "lady gaga lyrics" or "tupac lyrics". In all three cases, azlyrics.com has the top spot.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- bushido 13y ago
  Edit: the reply is to the now reacted comment: > They're a startup, and this was a problem which was either going to kill them or be surmounted quickly. Naturally, they surmounted it quickly. Google laid out a clear plan of action for them. Is it hard to believe they finished it quickly? Yeah, most of the other sites I refer to were also start-ups by almost any definition. They did not quite finish their action plan. They got away on reasonable doubt. This is the first time I am seeing this defense considered by Google. I willing to bet any other non-vc funded bootstrapped start-up would never be afforded this consideration by Google. This rant is not a judgement on Rap Genius, I am actually glad they maneuvered around this. I am judging Google. They have killed other start-ups for reasons such as other sites farming and duplication their content more vehemently. Reasonable doubt has never been considered for anybody else and most likely will never be hence forth.
  - ashray 13y ago
    I just want to add that this attitude doesn't even reflect poorly solely on Google Search. Adsense is another product that if you get kicked out of, you have zero recourse. What about that gmail fiasco a few months ago? Users got blocked out of G services for not providing their real names and had no recourse to get their data for several weeks/months. Just goes to show that in several cases it's not what you know but who you know.
- freehunter 13y ago
  I have never seen Rap Genius on Google, even before all of this. I've seen Metro Lyrics, AZ Lyrics, Song Meaning, etc. I've gone through pages of Google results because every lyrics site sucks, still haven't seen them. Everyone says Rap Genius is excellent, but I've never heard of them outside of HN. I find that odd.
rdl 13y ago
You have the causality wrong. Rap Genius has Andreessen Horowitz because Rap Genius is special. In this case, the user experience for a Google user is worse when Rap Genius is removed. Google has some incentive to be more active in fixing the problem there, especially since Rap Genius was cooperative, technically competent, and aside from their "rapper swag persona", genuinely nice guys.
- pstack 13y ago
  Can someone clarify for me, again, what is so special about Rap Genius? It's just a bunch of stupid rap lyrics. So what? In fact, how are they not being sued for copyright by the owners of all the lyrics they're posting, anyway? I run across Rap Genius now and then and have always considered it to be spam, just like yahoo answers, ehow, and mahalo pages.
  - citricsquid 13y ago
    http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-horowitz-is-investing-in-rap-genius-lyrics http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-hor... Rap Genius [...] and have always considered it to be spam That's pretty absurd...
  - ScottWhigham 13y ago
    Can someone clarify for me, again, what is so special about Rap Genius? Why? You've no doubt read 10x reasons people here have said so (in the other threads). Do you just want to argue? If you don't agree, fine, but clearly a large and vocal group does. So what? Move along - find other things to care about.
  - streptomycin 13y ago
    In fact, how are they not being sued for copyright by the owners of all the lyrics they're posting, anyway? They have had some legal troubles, but are trying to sign licensing deals http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/business/media/rap-genius-says-it-will-seek-licenses-for-lyrics.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/business/media/rap-genius-... However, if their licensing deals are anything like what other sites have to pay for lyrics, it's going to significantly (entirely?) cut into their profit margin.
walshemj 13y ago
Having worked for large ftse100 publishers who had sites penalized in algo updates its stinks that such an avowedly black hat site gets of with a slap on the wrist.
- junto 13y ago
  On a similar topic, how do affiliate linking programmes even work anymore? Surely Google would classify all affiliate programmes as paid links. Even big ones such as Amazon Affiliates, Commission Junction, Affiliate Window are all being plugged by affiliates, and the vast majority of those affiliates are using templated sites or stuffing keywords in blog posts that are largely irrelevant to the product or service they are plugging for affiliate fees? Aren't all affiliate programmes technically bad for the publisher after Penguin?
  - hayksaakian 13y ago
    Usually they are paid be purchase, irrespective of the number of clicks.
- Shog9 13y ago
  This wasn't an algorithm update. If the folks at Google can figure out how to detect this sort of gaming more reliably, that may end up in a future algorithm update, and no amount of pleading will matter for anyone affected by it - they'll have to fix the problem or continue to suffer the consequences.
  - walshemj 13y ago
    The algo is meant to detect such manipulative links and devalue them.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jonknee 13y ago
> Frankly I do not know a single other legitimate(+with good traffic) site who was able to get back in the good graces of Google after algorithm updates without spending many many months researching any possible reasons to be penalized and fixing it themselves after repeatedly asking google for help to no avail. Well there wasn't an algorithm update, there was a manual action. Google reversed the manual action after RapGenius stopped breaking the rules and cleaned up its mess. If this happened to you there would be a note about it in Webmaster Tools and you would be able to ask Google to take another look. I'm sure RapGenius had all hands on deck making sure they were up to snuff.

by bushido 13y ago

sillysaurus2 13y ago

They're back on Google, but keep in mind that they're seemingly not in a great position. Googling "justin beiber lyrics" doesn't show Rapgenius. Neither does "lady gaga lyrics" or "tupac lyrics". In all three cases, azlyrics.com has the top spot.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
bushido 13y ago
Edit: the reply is to the now reacted comment: > They're a startup, and this was a problem which was either going to kill them or be surmounted quickly. Naturally, they surmounted it quickly. Google laid out a clear plan of action for them. Is it hard to believe they finished it quickly? Yeah, most of the other sites I refer to were also start-ups by almost any definition. They did not quite finish their action plan. They got away on reasonable doubt. This is the first time I am seeing this defense considered by Google. I willing to bet any other non-vc funded bootstrapped start-up would never be afforded this consideration by Google. This rant is not a judgement on Rap Genius, I am actually glad they maneuvered around this. I am judging Google. They have killed other start-ups for reasons such as other sites farming and duplication their content more vehemently. Reasonable doubt has never been considered for anybody else and most likely will never be hence forth.
- ashray 13y ago
  I just want to add that this attitude doesn't even reflect poorly solely on Google Search. Adsense is another product that if you get kicked out of, you have zero recourse. What about that gmail fiasco a few months ago? Users got blocked out of G services for not providing their real names and had no recourse to get their data for several weeks/months. Just goes to show that in several cases it's not what you know but who you know.
freehunter 13y ago
I have never seen Rap Genius on Google, even before all of this. I've seen Metro Lyrics, AZ Lyrics, Song Meaning, etc. I've gone through pages of Google results because every lyrics site sucks, still haven't seen them. Everyone says Rap Genius is excellent, but I've never heard of them outside of HN. I find that odd.

rdl 13y ago

You have the causality wrong. Rap Genius has Andreessen Horowitz because Rap Genius is special. In this case, the user experience for a Google user is worse when Rap Genius is removed. Google has some incentive to be more active in fixing the problem there, especially since Rap Genius was cooperative, technically competent, and aside from their "rapper swag persona", genuinely nice guys.

pstack 13y ago
Can someone clarify for me, again, what is so special about Rap Genius? It's just a bunch of stupid rap lyrics. So what? In fact, how are they not being sued for copyright by the owners of all the lyrics they're posting, anyway? I run across Rap Genius now and then and have always considered it to be spam, just like yahoo answers, ehow, and mahalo pages.
- citricsquid 13y ago
  http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-horowitz-is-investing-in-rap-genius-lyrics http://news.rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-hor... Rap Genius [...] and have always considered it to be spam That's pretty absurd...
- ScottWhigham 13y ago
  Can someone clarify for me, again, what is so special about Rap Genius? Why? You've no doubt read 10x reasons people here have said so (in the other threads). Do you just want to argue? If you don't agree, fine, but clearly a large and vocal group does. So what? Move along - find other things to care about.
- streptomycin 13y ago
  In fact, how are they not being sued for copyright by the owners of all the lyrics they're posting, anyway? They have had some legal troubles, but are trying to sign licensing deals http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/business/media/rap-genius-says-it-will-seek-licenses-for-lyrics.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/15/business/media/rap-genius-... However, if their licensing deals are anything like what other sites have to pay for lyrics, it's going to significantly (entirely?) cut into their profit margin.

walshemj 13y ago

Having worked for large ftse100 publishers who had sites penalized in algo updates its stinks that such an avowedly black hat site gets of with a slap on the wrist.

junto 13y ago
On a similar topic, how do affiliate linking programmes even work anymore? Surely Google would classify all affiliate programmes as paid links. Even big ones such as Amazon Affiliates, Commission Junction, Affiliate Window are all being plugged by affiliates, and the vast majority of those affiliates are using templated sites or stuffing keywords in blog posts that are largely irrelevant to the product or service they are plugging for affiliate fees? Aren't all affiliate programmes technically bad for the publisher after Penguin?
- hayksaakian 13y ago
  Usually they are paid be purchase, irrespective of the number of clicks.
Shog9 13y ago
This wasn't an algorithm update. If the folks at Google can figure out how to detect this sort of gaming more reliably, that may end up in a future algorithm update, and no amount of pleading will matter for anyone affected by it - they'll have to fix the problem or continue to suffer the consequences.
- walshemj 13y ago
  The algo is meant to detect such manipulative links and devalue them.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jonknee 13y ago

> Frankly I do not know a single other legitimate(+with good traffic) site who was able to get back in the good graces of Google after algorithm updates without spending many many months researching any possible reasons to be penalized and fixing it themselves after repeatedly asking google for help to no avail. Well there wasn't an algorithm update, there was a manual action. Google reversed the manual action after RapGenius stopped breaking the rules and cleaned up its mess. If this happened to you there would be a note about it in Webmaster Tools and you would be able to ask Google to take another look. I'm sure RapGenius had all hands on deck making sure they were up to snuff.