3 ms·

Polish teen derails tram after hacking train network (2008)

50 points by TriinT 17y ago

jrockway 17y ago
Nice. He probably didn't cause enough damage for people to realize that transit control systems should be encrypted, though.
TriinT 17y ago
A photo: http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/4819/z4819154Z.jpg http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/4819/z4819154Z.jpg
- slackenerny 17y ago
  And of his kit: http://www.dziennik.pl/files/archive/00042/2_1415_tramwaj_1_42672g.jpg http://www.dziennik.pl/files/archive/00042/2_1415_tramwaj_1_...
  - zackattack 17y ago
    How on earth could that have possibly worked?
    - imajes 17y ago
      so i'm going to suggest that in cities, alot of traffic and transit systems are just gsm boxes that send/receive commands. I've seen a traffic box opened up and asked the engineer how it all worked. He pointed to the (essentially) cell phone type device that sent stuff back to HQ. I don't imagine that'd be hard to hack. Even easier (given his hacking of a remote control) is if these points were controlled by RF signals sent by the train as they approached. "hey, it's me, open up so i can pass" type signals. This would be more shocking because it implies a level of automation that i'm not sure many would be comfortable with in such a system.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    and the slashdot story when it broke: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/11/1719222 http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/11/1719222
devin 17y ago
Is it too soon for a Polish joke?
- zackattack 17y ago
  No, but it is too soon for an "Is it too soon for a Polish joke?" joke.
- aberman 17y ago
  You should ask the 12 Polish people injured in the collision.
aberman 17y ago
Sadly, he probably did them a favor in the long run. Gaping hole in transit security.
- patio11 17y ago
  A couple hundred people very nearly did not get a "long run" due to his antics.
  - aberman 17y ago
    Right, exactly my point. Luckily they DID get a "long run" --which might not be the case next time.
- udekaf 17y ago
  Agree. It reminds us how our public transport systems are vulnerable to hacking. Think about 9-11.
utku_karatas 17y ago
Reminded me Lawnchair Larry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Walters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Walters). "A man can't just sit around."
andreyf 17y ago
He clearly did not think about the consequences of his actions. He's 14 years old. His brains might have developed enough to outsmart really horrible engineering, but no psychologist would argue most 14 year olds have fully developed understanding of consequences (much less, empathy) at that age. The problem is not with the boy. Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit This is the real problem. Whoever approves this kind of engineering into practice is directly responsible for whatever damage was done. The youth, described by his teachers as an electronics buff and exemplary student, faces charges at a special juvenile court of endangering public safety I don't think he realized he was endangering public safety, and certainly can't comprehend what that means in a way adults do.
- patio11 17y ago
  [N]o psychologist would argue most 14 year olds have fully developed understanding of consequences (much less, empathy) at that age. The problem is not with the boy. What. The. Heck. How old do you have to be to understand "If a train derails, people die. People dying is a bad thing. Trains are big and complicated and are operated by professionals or at least people trained to use them, like, you know, cars." ?!?! For several thousand years of human history we expected 14 year olds to go off to war, die gallantly, and come back and raise children if they survived. They proved up to the challenge. Now they're infantilized to the point where they cannot be reliably expected to show empathy for people who die as a result of their actions. What. The. Heck. Words fail me. [Edit: Gah, the more I think about this the more livid I get. GAAAAAAAAAH. I used to be a teacher and my child developmental psychology is a little rusty, but I also used to be a Boy Scout and can remember what we were doing when we were eight. It included practicing for emergencies such as What To Do If Someone Falls In The River. Answer: don't enter the river, because they are panicking and will drown you, instead, throw them a rope or flotation device. We did not have to explain to eight year olds that people drowning in the river is a bad thing or that the predictable consequence of pushing someone off a bridge into a river is that they will die, this is a bad thing, accordingly don't push someone off a bridge into the river even if you think he will look really funny falling into it.]

50 points by TriinT 17y ago

Nice. He probably didn't cause enough damage for people to realize that transit control systems should be encrypted, though.

TriinT 17y ago

A photo: http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/4819/z4819154Z.jpg http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/4/4819/z4819154Z.jpg

slackenerny 17y ago
And of his kit: http://www.dziennik.pl/files/archive/00042/2_1415_tramwaj_1_42672g.jpg http://www.dziennik.pl/files/archive/00042/2_1415_tramwaj_1_...
- zackattack 17y ago
  How on earth could that have possibly worked?
  - imajes 17y ago
    so i'm going to suggest that in cities, alot of traffic and transit systems are just gsm boxes that send/receive commands. I've seen a traffic box opened up and asked the engineer how it all worked. He pointed to the (essentially) cell phone type device that sent stuff back to HQ. I don't imagine that'd be hard to hack. Even easier (given his hacking of a remote control) is if these points were controlled by RF signals sent by the train as they approached. "hey, it's me, open up so i can pass" type signals. This would be more shocking because it implies a level of automation that i'm not sure many would be comfortable with in such a system.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  and the slashdot story when it broke: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/11/1719222 http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/11/1719222

devin 17y ago

Is it too soon for a Polish joke?

zackattack 17y ago
No, but it is too soon for an "Is it too soon for a Polish joke?" joke.
aberman 17y ago
You should ask the 12 Polish people injured in the collision.

aberman 17y ago

Sadly, he probably did them a favor in the long run. Gaping hole in transit security.

patio11 17y ago
A couple hundred people very nearly did not get a "long run" due to his antics.
- aberman 17y ago
  Right, exactly my point. Luckily they DID get a "long run" --which might not be the case next time.
udekaf 17y ago
Agree. It reminds us how our public transport systems are vulnerable to hacking. Think about 9-11.

utku_karatas 17y ago

Reminded me Lawnchair Larry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Walters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Walters). "A man can't just sit around."

andreyf 17y ago

He clearly did not think about the consequences of his actions. He's 14 years old. His brains might have developed enough to outsmart really horrible engineering, but no psychologist would argue most 14 year olds have fully developed understanding of consequences (much less, empathy) at that age. The problem is not with the boy. Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit This is the real problem. Whoever approves this kind of engineering into practice is directly responsible for whatever damage was done. The youth, described by his teachers as an electronics buff and exemplary student, faces charges at a special juvenile court of endangering public safety I don't think he realized he was endangering public safety, and certainly can't comprehend what that means in a way adults do.

patio11 17y ago
[N]o psychologist would argue most 14 year olds have fully developed understanding of consequences (much less, empathy) at that age. The problem is not with the boy. What. The. Heck. How old do you have to be to understand "If a train derails, people die. People dying is a bad thing. Trains are big and complicated and are operated by professionals or at least people trained to use them, like, you know, cars." ?!?! For several thousand years of human history we expected 14 year olds to go off to war, die gallantly, and come back and raise children if they survived. They proved up to the challenge. Now they're infantilized to the point where they cannot be reliably expected to show empathy for people who die as a result of their actions. What. The. Heck. Words fail me. [Edit: Gah, the more I think about this the more livid I get. GAAAAAAAAAH. I used to be a teacher and my child developmental psychology is a little rusty, but I also used to be a Boy Scout and can remember what we were doing when we were eight. It included practicing for emergencies such as What To Do If Someone Falls In The River. Answer: don't enter the river, because they are panicking and will drown you, instead, throw them a rope or flotation device. We did not have to explain to eight year olds that people drowning in the river is a bad thing or that the predictable consequence of pushing someone off a bridge into a river is that they will die, this is a bad thing, accordingly don't push someone off a bridge into the river even if you think he will look really funny falling into it.]