6 ms·

My mom became a doctor in the late 60s, when there was still a good deal of real sexism towards women (she was the only woman doctor at the college) - she had h

My mom became a doctor in the late 60s, when there was still a good deal of real sexism towards women (she was the only woman doctor at the college) - she had her lab work sabotaged among other things. (Before becoming a doctor, she started majoring in computer science, of all things.) So why did women start becoming doctors? Is it because we went out of our way to create special programs, incentives, interest, and reverse discrimination for them? No. Women became doctors because they wanted to, and now sexism is at a point where it is kind of pathetic to not become a doctor because you are afraid of any sexist reactions you might encounter. I'd say the same applies for computer science. Women will come into the discipline over time (especially since now there are more software engineers than there are farmers in the US), no need artificially manipulate the evolution of the job market.

MartinCron 13y ago
no need artificially manipulate the evolution of the job market Interesting point, though I consider things like "stop being sexist assholes" not to be an artificial manipulation of the evolution market but just basic civilized behavior which benefits men and women alike.
- gavanwoolery 13y ago
  I agree - there is no reason to be sexist. But the author's message is not just about sexism, it is about reverse discrimination. It's one thing to fight against inequality. Its another to demand that the scales be tipped in your favor.
- berrypicker 13y ago
  Is opposing affirmative action programs, which have historically proven to be largely failures, being a "sexist asshole"? I'm looking at this from a purely economical perspective because I really do not care about what people do, and I do not see a good reason to try to manipulate the employment market instead of society's view on employment.
  - MartinCron 13y ago
    I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't consider having different opinions on affirmative action programs being a "sexist asshole". If you really need examples of actions that do qualify as sexist assholery, let me know and I'll dig some up. They aren't exactly hard to find.
rayiner 13y ago
That's actually not true. The medical profession went to great lengths to create special programs for women. Medical schools went to great lengths to equalize the number of men and women in their incoming classes. Medical schools were in fact some of the pioneers in affirmative action (the seminal Supreme Court Decision Regents of University of California v. Bakke involved a medical school).
- gavanwoolery 13y ago
  True, but you'd have to personally interview each women to determine their motivations for entering medicine (causation can be attributed to many things, including the general decline of sexism). Personally, my mom, even though she had a somewhat tough time, is very anti-reverse discrimination (which probably rubbed off on me). She views reverse discrimination as treating women like they are too weak to succeed on their own. Equality is treating people as equals.
  - harryh 13y ago
    So basically rayiner pointed out that you had a fairly huge factual misunderstanding of the world. You're going to acknowledge that mistake but continue to cling to your viewpoint about the value of affirmative action anyways based solely on the feelings of your mother? That's interesting.
    - gavanwoolery 13y ago
      To clarify, I am saying "true" to the fact that colleges have plenty of reverse discrimination programs. I stand by my statement that these programs were not necessarily responsible for getting women into medicine. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can go ask any women why she got into medicine, and her response probably won't be "well, the colleges were giving awesome scholarships to women at the time." It will more likely be "I wanted to get into a field where I could help people" or some such thing. In fact, you will rarely find people who chose their profession based on how much sexism was present. Rather (odd as it is!) people tend to choose the profession they are interested in pursuing, or one that has a good salary.
einhverfr 13y ago
Indeed. My grandmother (https://aas.org/obituaries/georgeanne-caughlan-1916-1994 https://aas.org/obituaries/georgeanne-caughlan-1916-1994) became an astrophysics professor in 1964....

MartinCron 13y ago

no need artificially manipulate the evolution of the job market Interesting point, though I consider things like "stop being sexist assholes" not to be an artificial manipulation of the evolution market but just basic civilized behavior which benefits men and women alike.

gavanwoolery 13y ago
I agree - there is no reason to be sexist. But the author's message is not just about sexism, it is about reverse discrimination. It's one thing to fight against inequality. Its another to demand that the scales be tipped in your favor.
berrypicker 13y ago
Is opposing affirmative action programs, which have historically proven to be largely failures, being a "sexist asshole"? I'm looking at this from a purely economical perspective because I really do not care about what people do, and I do not see a good reason to try to manipulate the employment market instead of society's view on employment.
- MartinCron 13y ago
  I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't consider having different opinions on affirmative action programs being a "sexist asshole". If you really need examples of actions that do qualify as sexist assholery, let me know and I'll dig some up. They aren't exactly hard to find.

rayiner 13y ago

That's actually not true. The medical profession went to great lengths to create special programs for women. Medical schools went to great lengths to equalize the number of men and women in their incoming classes. Medical schools were in fact some of the pioneers in affirmative action (the seminal Supreme Court Decision Regents of University of California v. Bakke involved a medical school).

gavanwoolery 13y ago
True, but you'd have to personally interview each women to determine their motivations for entering medicine (causation can be attributed to many things, including the general decline of sexism). Personally, my mom, even though she had a somewhat tough time, is very anti-reverse discrimination (which probably rubbed off on me). She views reverse discrimination as treating women like they are too weak to succeed on their own. Equality is treating people as equals.
- harryh 13y ago
  So basically rayiner pointed out that you had a fairly huge factual misunderstanding of the world. You're going to acknowledge that mistake but continue to cling to your viewpoint about the value of affirmative action anyways based solely on the feelings of your mother? That's interesting.
  - gavanwoolery 13y ago
    To clarify, I am saying "true" to the fact that colleges have plenty of reverse discrimination programs. I stand by my statement that these programs were not necessarily responsible for getting women into medicine. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can go ask any women why she got into medicine, and her response probably won't be "well, the colleges were giving awesome scholarships to women at the time." It will more likely be "I wanted to get into a field where I could help people" or some such thing. In fact, you will rarely find people who chose their profession based on how much sexism was present. Rather (odd as it is!) people tend to choose the profession they are interested in pursuing, or one that has a good salary.

einhverfr 13y ago

Indeed. My grandmother (https://aas.org/obituaries/georgeanne-caughlan-1916-1994 https://aas.org/obituaries/georgeanne-caughlan-1916-1994) became an astrophysics professor in 1964....