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Can you cite an usage that doesn't compensate for a missing feature of the platform? iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an e

Can you cite an usage that doesn't compensate for a missing feature of the platform? iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an ecosystem of products around it to explore/modify/share backups in the standard format, so I don't see me running SSH for it even if I could.

boomlinde 13y ago
> Can you cite an usage that doesn't compensate for a missing feature of the platform? A missing feature, such as your phone not running the server that you need to do light maintenance on? > iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an ecosystem of products around it to explore/modify/share backups in the standard format There is also an ecosystem of products to explore/modify/share rsync backups. Tools like cd, mv, cp, cat, tar... Sorry if I sound harsh, but the wheel can only be invented so many times. I agree that the iPhone backup system is a huge convenience, but if you really want your backups in a "standard format" you'll use a format you are sure Apple won't change at a hunch and that you can manipulate in the same way you do your other backups.
- giovannibajo1 13y ago
  The problem here is that UNIX tools and shell are not a solution for a generic consumer device. So unless you are arguing that everybody should be able to use them (in which case, I leave the discussion for not being interested in debating the topic), you need to accept the fact that there has to be a user-level feature for backup. At which point, unless it is badly implemented, it is probably far easier and safe than trying to mirror with rsync your phone and then figure out how to handle software upgrades, restores, different partitions, separate software from data, and whatnot. Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value. If I need to backup a sqlite DB with my contacts with rsync, I might as well use a high-level tool that offers me much more without me having to write DB-manipulation code, for instance, syncing/converting with the address book on my OS that might be in a different format. On the other hand, if I edit a .odt file on a tablet, I can see a value in directly manipulating with the shell, as that file is something that I create and I want to access and move around. But only a subset of the things that I want to backup are document files that I created. If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored. And assuming I found out, I don't want to be bothered to thinking if direct file copying is the correct way to restore it on a newer/older version of the operating system. This is a level of detail that is beyond what I (personally) want to know about a smartphone. So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features?
  - boomlinde 13y ago
    > The problem here is that UNIX tools and shell are not a solution for a generic consumer device. Not for every person or every problem, but people like pessimizer seem to have found use for UNIX tools. N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools. > Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value. Agreed. > If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored. To each their own, but you have to agree that its reasonable for someone else not to share that opinion. > So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features? If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not
    - giovannibajo1 13y ago
      > N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools. It would greatly help if he/she described how it is more flexible. I fail to see it, and I regularly do server backups with rsync, so I think I know the tool. On the contrary, my own technical evaluation is that it is a lot less convenient that the native, builtin backup solution, especially because it requires far more work to achieve the same, and it is going to be risky on the face of subsequent OS updates (that might invalidate your backups without you even realizing, unless you have another phone to regularly test your in-house backup/restore solution). > If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not If I understand correctly, you're saying that "having SSH access" is a feature, irrespective of how it can be used. I think everybody would agree with this :) Instead, what I'm trying to find out is what SSH access enables me to do, with a specific focus on solving problems or implementing features that are not reasonably supposed to be part of the consumer-level features offered by the platform. You can answer "nothing, but I still like it because I do", of course. I'm not trying to change anyone's behavior. But after 2 years of (not) using SSH access to my smartphone, I'm curious of how other people use it and why.
pessimizer 13y ago
To restate the first reply to your comment - iOS is the device with the missing features, usually replacing them with often impenetrable, closed-source, in-house, single-vendor solutions. A shell is not a compensation for half a dozen apps that almost replace a single command. In fact, quite the opposite. Does iOS have a user-accessible file system yet?
- giovannibajo1 13y ago
  iOS doesn't have a user-accessible file system because it's trying (as you might know) a bet to move to a paradigm where the filesystem is not exposed to the user. Not saying is correct or not, but it is a precise design choice. Regardless, I had my iPhone jailbroken for 2 years, with full SSH root access and never used it, and I would have never used it to backup since there was a much more stable, officially tested and supported way to implement it; the least thing I wanted is to lose my data because I wanted to be smart and implemented an in-house untested solution. This is why I'm genuinely curious whether the shell on a N900 empowers to do things that aren't reasonably found on a consumer-level feature.

boomlinde 13y ago

> Can you cite an usage that doesn't compensate for a missing feature of the platform? A missing feature, such as your phone not running the server that you need to do light maintenance on? > iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an ecosystem of products around it to explore/modify/share backups in the standard format There is also an ecosystem of products to explore/modify/share rsync backups. Tools like cd, mv, cp, cat, tar... Sorry if I sound harsh, but the wheel can only be invented so many times. I agree that the iPhone backup system is a huge convenience, but if you really want your backups in a "standard format" you'll use a format you are sure Apple won't change at a hunch and that you can manipulate in the same way you do your other backups.

giovannibajo1 13y ago
The problem here is that UNIX tools and shell are not a solution for a generic consumer device. So unless you are arguing that everybody should be able to use them (in which case, I leave the discussion for not being interested in debating the topic), you need to accept the fact that there has to be a user-level feature for backup. At which point, unless it is badly implemented, it is probably far easier and safe than trying to mirror with rsync your phone and then figure out how to handle software upgrades, restores, different partitions, separate software from data, and whatnot. Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value. If I need to backup a sqlite DB with my contacts with rsync, I might as well use a high-level tool that offers me much more without me having to write DB-manipulation code, for instance, syncing/converting with the address book on my OS that might be in a different format. On the other hand, if I edit a .odt file on a tablet, I can see a value in directly manipulating with the shell, as that file is something that I create and I want to access and move around. But only a subset of the things that I want to backup are document files that I created. If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored. And assuming I found out, I don't want to be bothered to thinking if direct file copying is the correct way to restore it on a newer/older version of the operating system. This is a level of detail that is beyond what I (personally) want to know about a smartphone. So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features?
- boomlinde 13y ago
  > The problem here is that UNIX tools and shell are not a solution for a generic consumer device. Not for every person or every problem, but people like pessimizer seem to have found use for UNIX tools. N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools. > Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value. Agreed. > If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored. To each their own, but you have to agree that its reasonable for someone else not to share that opinion. > So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features? If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not
  - giovannibajo1 13y ago
    > N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools. It would greatly help if he/she described how it is more flexible. I fail to see it, and I regularly do server backups with rsync, so I think I know the tool. On the contrary, my own technical evaluation is that it is a lot less convenient that the native, builtin backup solution, especially because it requires far more work to achieve the same, and it is going to be risky on the face of subsequent OS updates (that might invalidate your backups without you even realizing, unless you have another phone to regularly test your in-house backup/restore solution). > If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not If I understand correctly, you're saying that "having SSH access" is a feature, irrespective of how it can be used. I think everybody would agree with this :) Instead, what I'm trying to find out is what SSH access enables me to do, with a specific focus on solving problems or implementing features that are not reasonably supposed to be part of the consumer-level features offered by the platform. You can answer "nothing, but I still like it because I do", of course. I'm not trying to change anyone's behavior. But after 2 years of (not) using SSH access to my smartphone, I'm curious of how other people use it and why.

pessimizer 13y ago

To restate the first reply to your comment - iOS is the device with the missing features, usually replacing them with often impenetrable, closed-source, in-house, single-vendor solutions. A shell is not a compensation for half a dozen apps that almost replace a single command. In fact, quite the opposite. Does iOS have a user-accessible file system yet?

giovannibajo1 13y ago
iOS doesn't have a user-accessible file system because it's trying (as you might know) a bet to move to a paradigm where the filesystem is not exposed to the user. Not saying is correct or not, but it is a precise design choice. Regardless, I had my iPhone jailbroken for 2 years, with full SSH root access and never used it, and I would have never used it to backup since there was a much more stable, officially tested and supported way to implement it; the least thing I wanted is to lose my data because I wanted to be smart and implemented an in-house untested solution. This is why I'm genuinely curious whether the shell on a N900 empowers to do things that aren't reasonably found on a consumer-level feature.