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A desire to kill oneself is a diagnosis of mental instability.

bradleydwyer 13y ago
I'm genuinely curious, is that a widely accepted position on suicide and mental stability? I can think of a number of situations where suicide might be preferable to continued existence.
- cjbprime 13y ago
  I think it may be widely accepted, but I also think it's nonsense. As you allude to, someone with a terminal and painful disease could have an entirely rational desire to commit suicide based on a sensible projection of the future as containing a persistent unacceptable level of suffering. I think we should only invoke "mental instability" when someone's projection of their future level of suffering is clearly mistaken.
  - mentalhealth 13y ago
    I think it's theoretically possible for someone to arrive at the decision to end their own life via careful evaluation, but it's quite unlikely (and at this point, the only real acknowledgement of it in the psychiatric field is in the case of terminally ill patients, when the calculus is pretty clear). Regardless, the vast majority of suicides are the result of a combination of depression and loss of inhibition, both of which are psychiatric symptoms that can be brought on or exacerbated by severe stress. The assumption can and should be that this is the case, not that an individual who was self-admittedly under huge amounts of personal stress performed a rational evaluation of their own future prospects in life and determined that it wasn't worth living.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Suicidal thinking is almost always a mental health problem or the result of a mental health problem. You say that there are some situations where suicide is a rational choice. But even in these cases it's not that clear. While I respect the right to chose death, and support changing of law to allow people to seek medically assisted suicide, I am worried that people with undiagnosed depression who would respond to treatment are allowed to die.
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
user: mentalhealth created: 17 minutes ago You're really not a very good troll.
- mentalhealth 13y ago
  I learned quite a long time ago that realistic discussion of mental health as it actually affects real people generally results in a lot of negative votes here on HN. But please, continue to dismiss my argument by attacking me and not the statement I made. More par for the course hereabouts.
  - crag 13y ago
    "...it actually affects real people generally results in a lot of negative votes here on HN." Then don't comment if you're so afraid of your rep. I mean, what's the point of this site? To me, it's to exchange various thoughts/ideas related to tech and otherwise. Creating a new account to comment cause your afraid of being down-voted is cowardly. And insulting, frankly.
    - mentalhealth 13y ago
      It's not about the rep score, it's about people looking through my post history, determining where I work, and trolling me via my employer (this happened). Let's get back on topic, shall we?
  - Moocat87 13y ago
    I think you'll find that almost everywhere on the Internet, and most places in meatspace too... :(
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    I think the problem here is that you didn't really make an argument. You made an unsubstantiated claim (and misused "diagnosis" while at it) and just sort of left it there.
    - 13y ago
chmike 13y ago
This is a blunt claim I can't agree with. You totally ignore the context. I know a man who suicide himeself because he was about to lose a trial and it would mean he would have lost his house to pay the huge fine. He was old and to save his wife and child of this misery he commited suicide. From his perspective it was a rational decision because he didn't see any better one. There is absolutely not mental instability in play here. My feeling is that most people who commit suicide do it because they decided it on a rational basis. Some people commit suicide because they want to stop a pain they feel and in their view will apparently last forever or will get worse. I.e cancer, someone has to spend the rest of his life in a bed after an accident ... People can also commit suicide as a sacrifice to save others. But I guess you were not talking of these types of suicide. Suicide due to mental instability is probably just a small fraction of all suicide. Your claim is typical from someone who didn't took the time and made the effort to understand what can lead someone fully rational to suicide. A rational thinking compares the cost and benefit of dying or living. According to some context a perfectly sain person may rationnaly conclude that commiting suicide is the best choice. The rational thinking they had from their perspective and knowledge may have been wrong, but this is not to be confused with mental instability.
- Moocat87 13y ago
  >My feeling is that most people who commit suicide do it because they decided it on a rational basis. Some people commit suicide because they want to stop a pain they feel and in their view will apparently last forever or will get worse. I.e cancer, someone has to spend the rest of his life in a bed after an accident ... People can also commit suicide as a sacrifice to save others. But I guess you were not talking of these types of suicide. You think that more people commit suicide for others than for themselves? Care to explain why or cite anything? >Suicide due to mental instability is probably just a small fraction of all suicide. Cite?
  - chmike 13y ago
    No. I don't think that and I didn't said that. Cite? Just found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide. From the graphic shown on the page, not all suicide are caused by mental illness. That was my main point. I have some doubts about the mental illness importance shown in this graph. Anyway, the mental illness could be the source of pain leading to the rational decision to end it by suicide.
andreasvc 13y ago
You may want to look up the difference between a symptom and a diagnosis. I am also curious about the argument you want to make, because your comment is just a proposition without motivation.

I'm genuinely curious, is that a widely accepted position on suicide and mental stability? I can think of a number of situations where suicide might be preferable to continued existence.

cjbprime 13y ago
I think it may be widely accepted, but I also think it's nonsense. As you allude to, someone with a terminal and painful disease could have an entirely rational desire to commit suicide based on a sensible projection of the future as containing a persistent unacceptable level of suffering. I think we should only invoke "mental instability" when someone's projection of their future level of suffering is clearly mistaken.
- mentalhealth 13y ago
  I think it's theoretically possible for someone to arrive at the decision to end their own life via careful evaluation, but it's quite unlikely (and at this point, the only real acknowledgement of it in the psychiatric field is in the case of terminally ill patients, when the calculus is pretty clear). Regardless, the vast majority of suicides are the result of a combination of depression and loss of inhibition, both of which are psychiatric symptoms that can be brought on or exacerbated by severe stress. The assumption can and should be that this is the case, not that an individual who was self-admittedly under huge amounts of personal stress performed a rational evaluation of their own future prospects in life and determined that it wasn't worth living.
DanBC 13y ago
Suicidal thinking is almost always a mental health problem or the result of a mental health problem. You say that there are some situations where suicide is a rational choice. But even in these cases it's not that clear. While I respect the right to chose death, and support changing of law to allow people to seek medically assisted suicide, I am worried that people with undiagnosed depression who would respond to treatment are allowed to die.

PhasmaFelis 13y ago

user: mentalhealth created: 17 minutes ago You're really not a very good troll.

mentalhealth 13y ago
I learned quite a long time ago that realistic discussion of mental health as it actually affects real people generally results in a lot of negative votes here on HN. But please, continue to dismiss my argument by attacking me and not the statement I made. More par for the course hereabouts.
- crag 13y ago
  "...it actually affects real people generally results in a lot of negative votes here on HN." Then don't comment if you're so afraid of your rep. I mean, what's the point of this site? To me, it's to exchange various thoughts/ideas related to tech and otherwise. Creating a new account to comment cause your afraid of being down-voted is cowardly. And insulting, frankly.
  - mentalhealth 13y ago
    It's not about the rep score, it's about people looking through my post history, determining where I work, and trolling me via my employer (this happened). Let's get back on topic, shall we?
- Moocat87 13y ago
  I think you'll find that almost everywhere on the Internet, and most places in meatspace too... :(
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  I think the problem here is that you didn't really make an argument. You made an unsubstantiated claim (and misused "diagnosis" while at it) and just sort of left it there.
  - 13y ago

chmike 13y ago

This is a blunt claim I can't agree with. You totally ignore the context. I know a man who suicide himeself because he was about to lose a trial and it would mean he would have lost his house to pay the huge fine. He was old and to save his wife and child of this misery he commited suicide. From his perspective it was a rational decision because he didn't see any better one. There is absolutely not mental instability in play here. My feeling is that most people who commit suicide do it because they decided it on a rational basis. Some people commit suicide because they want to stop a pain they feel and in their view will apparently last forever or will get worse. I.e cancer, someone has to spend the rest of his life in a bed after an accident ... People can also commit suicide as a sacrifice to save others. But I guess you were not talking of these types of suicide. Suicide due to mental instability is probably just a small fraction of all suicide. Your claim is typical from someone who didn't took the time and made the effort to understand what can lead someone fully rational to suicide. A rational thinking compares the cost and benefit of dying or living. According to some context a perfectly sain person may rationnaly conclude that commiting suicide is the best choice. The rational thinking they had from their perspective and knowledge may have been wrong, but this is not to be confused with mental instability.

Moocat87 13y ago
>My feeling is that most people who commit suicide do it because they decided it on a rational basis. Some people commit suicide because they want to stop a pain they feel and in their view will apparently last forever or will get worse. I.e cancer, someone has to spend the rest of his life in a bed after an accident ... People can also commit suicide as a sacrifice to save others. But I guess you were not talking of these types of suicide. You think that more people commit suicide for others than for themselves? Care to explain why or cite anything? >Suicide due to mental instability is probably just a small fraction of all suicide. Cite?
- chmike 13y ago
  No. I don't think that and I didn't said that. Cite? Just found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide. From the graphic shown on the page, not all suicide are caused by mental illness. That was my main point. I have some doubts about the mental illness importance shown in this graph. Anyway, the mental illness could be the source of pain leading to the rational decision to end it by suicide.

andreasvc 13y ago

You may want to look up the difference between a symptom and a diagnosis. I am also curious about the argument you want to make, because your comment is just a proposition without motivation.