9 ms·

I think the big takeaway here is a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they ha

I think the big takeaway here is a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they have to. I've done it quite a few times. But what we really need is more self-realization like this at the top. This is where the change for these sorts of policies can happen. On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time. But, on the other hand, there is still room and freedom to make your own way and write your own rules. I think about this topic a lot, especially because I am fighting burnout myself. I didn't do any work for most of xmas break and when I went back this week I kept thinking "I need another few months off". I even had to push for the two days after xmas off - there was a little push back from the ceo since we're a small 4 person company. But, I'm a little older than everyone and I was thinking "fuck it, I need to chill". Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want. I think there can definitely be a balance between being on vacation a lot and outsourcing all the non-important work to other people who will do it. Time Ferris is a great read for this type of living and it exemplifies the work to live not live to work thing (or work as little as possible and really live). I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I told myself: 1) I'd never work for someone else on vaca again - ever, and 2) I'd never make anyone else do that. Needless to say after a few days I was like, 'fuck this, this is the stupidest thing in the world. I'm in one of the best food and historical places in the world and the guys at home want me to keep coding. Bullshit.' I think there's a point where you either keep going with everyone else's rules or you make your own. Get busy livin or get busy dyin. I'm at the point in my life where I'm getting to the last of dyin for someone else's deal and starting to live for my own. It's not impossible, just take discipline and focus. Otherwise, me, and everyone else is working under someone else's thumb, by their rules, working on vacation. Dumb.

thrush 13y ago
I have to say that I think the big takeaway is radically different. Riding off the marathon analogy, taking vacations is critical to prevent burning out. In the long run it will keep you more productive and in turn be better for the company. Tim Ferris has some great things to say, but there's also the inherent risk that when working alone and taking a vacation, no one else is there to watch your back. Culture at some companies is definitely more what like what you described, particularly at finance firms, but there are definitely cultural shifts happening right now as less college grads are going straight to finance every year, allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases. It seems like your situation is very different from that though. Working at a small startup is really hard, particularly when you already have a family. I wish you and your startup the best of luck in the coming year.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases. "Unlimited PTO" is usually a bad thing, at least in startups. I don't like vacation tracking-- I think it's a waste of electrons and ink-- but the one company over 10 people where I worked that had "unlimited vacation" was a place where 2 weeks would usually get a person fired for "culture fit". I'd be more inclined to work for a company that offered 5 weeks (more than I need, at this age) than one that offered "unlimited". If nothing else, the former is better because it gives you the ability to say, "I'm used to 5 weeks" in negotiating a job offer and increasing the likelihood of a match. If you say, "I'm used to 'unlimited vacation'" you make it sound like you worked at a disorganized company and you won't get matched.
  - kelnos 13y ago
    In the latter case, you can simply say, "I'm used to X weeks", where X is the number of weeks per year that you personally usually took off while on the "unlimited" plan.
  - bonemachine 13y ago
    Yeah, it's basically just a gimmick. When I see "unlimited" PTO mentioned in job ads, I get the sense that someone put it in there because they got the idea (from some medium post or somewhere) that this is what all the other "it" startups are offering, and so hence, they should, too. Without like, you know, taking a couple of seconds to think about what it actually means.
grecy 13y ago
> a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they have to. Keep in mind you're only talking about America among developed countries. All others have much more leave, maternity, sick days mandated by law, and people take them.
- zackbrown 13y ago
  Legislation aside, I think it's important to note the US's cultural distinctness here (probably in an unhealthy way.) I spent a year after college backpacking, and I was surprised to find that productivity and travel aren't mutually exclusive, nor are travel and vacation the same thing. I think this notion is more widespread in other cultures (as you say, from many other more developed countries) and from that stems legislation. Based on my experiences, I do firmly believe that most of us would benefit by getting out of our home countries, more often and for longer.
- f_salmon 13y ago
  Yup, “Vacations are for the weak” is most certainly a very effective way of disguising the reality: “Vacations are for the affluent/rich”
  - gbog 13y ago
    Well, you can be not so rich and still take holidays, and enjoy them, why not? All travels do not need to bring you to expensive places.
    - Blahah 13y ago
      And all holiday need not involve travel. My ideal holiday would be a week at home with a stack of old sci-fi novels, Mariokart Wii and a long walk in the countryside every day.
    - grecy 13y ago
      >All travels do not need to bring you to expensive places. Absolutely. But tens of millions of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, so they can't even afford to take a week or two off and stay at home reading/relaxing/playing with the kids/whatever. Basically, they are slaves, they just don't know it.
crassus 13y ago
Developers underestimate their value and their ability to say "no". If you are a productive coder, the job market is great. If you take vacation assertively (say, six weeks a year) bosses simply can't afford to object.
com2kid 13y ago
> On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time. Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our small part to make the world a better place? Then again I'm not good at vacations. I don't switch off well, I'm the guy reading a book or playing a game while watching TV. Heck at times I'll play two video games at once, or play a game while reading an article. A two second pause in action in one game is plenty of time to alt tab out, read half a sentence, and alt-tab back in. Heck two seconds feels like an eternity at times! > Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Nope, although a good profit sharing plan would be appreciated! I love working within a team of people, we can get a lot more done together than as individuals!
- melling 13y ago
  If you can't enjoy yourself that's up to you. Don't take your vacation but it shouldn't impact everyone else's ability to take one. Many people want to travel, spend more time with family or friends, or just have a more interesting journey in life. Everyone is different.
- benmathes 13y ago
  I love your energy and appetite for life. I might suggest looking into the Myth of Multitasking: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+myth+of+multitasking https://www.google.com/search?q=the+myth+of+multitasking
- nickonline 13y ago
  I don't switch off either, one of my former housemates has a photo he thinks is amazing of me playing 2 computer games while watching a movie and texting. But I've recently signed on with a company with around ~6.5 weeks leave a year. I already have it worked out: - I go to Hawaii for a week, to Surf. - I'm going to New Zealand for a week, to Ski. - I'll be buying an around the world trip for the other 4 weeks. All of these will be very active and I don't have to turn off I'll have my laptop with me at all times. > Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our small part to make the world a better place? I find this hard to swallow, if you're talking about an amazing piece of software it might take X hours to build, if it's cleaning up the oceans it might take Y hours, either way a holiday only delays that and allows you time to yourself.
shalalala 13y ago
Reading your post was refreshing. Thank you!
adriand 13y ago
> I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I recently experienced something similar but possibly even stupider. At the end of November I caught the flu from my niece and took a very rare sick day off work. I laid in bed and slept and felt miserable, which is totally expected, of course. The ridiculous part was the fact I also felt guilty for doing nothing all day except lay around and sleep. Here I was, totally unfit for doing any work at all, experiencing guilt for not working and also for not doing anything around the house. This is unhealthy and I only partially relate it to being part of the tech community. I think another big part of it is my upbringing in a traditional, immigrant Protestant family with a powerful work ethic. That can help you get ahead but it also brings with it a lot of bullshit.
- kamaal 13y ago
  I feel a lot like that, And I know many hard working people who feel like that. I don't think there is any thing wrong with that kind of an attitude. And I can also assure that's some thing not restricted to our profession alone. A lot of people have to be in the game to feel comfortable. There are tons of people who are supposedly in retirement but still put in crazy hours to keep themselves sane. Beyond the craving to be seen by your own self as productive. Showing up for work has other benefits, like socializing, meeting people, knowing things, current affairs and continuous learning. None of that is possible sitting at home. Another thing that I see among people who while away time at home is their attitude towards their family. If there is some one around more productive ego clashes are inevitable. And human mind always seems to converge towards doubts, uncertainty, fear and in general negative emotions when left alone.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >I don't think there is any thing wrong with that kind of an attitude. Other people understand what's wrong with it, sometimes on their deathbed.
feralmoan 13y ago
No, companies do not care and they have no imperative to do so (old-guard companies, at least). That's why its perfectly OK to call them out on their crap and take your holidays when you need them. If they're a big company, their cost/benefit will probably run lower than cost/benefit to your sanity (and your partners sanity, and your family, and your friends etc etc.). Being a grown up means you take what you need, because like your own life, a companies existence is temporary and (likely) meaningless. It's not a badge of honor to run yourself into the ground for some brand-x corporate. The US is way off, culturally, in this regard. Wanna screw the 1%, fight for and take your holidays, that's a really good start! :D (disclosure: 4-6 weeks off foreigner in the US going what the hell to 2 weeks leave+no perf. bonus. Its bullshit, I don't get why people roll over and just take it. Love punishment? Validated by being victims? What the hell)
- snogglethorpe 13y ago
  In my first job doing software development I never quite realized you were supposed to inform them about vacations etc; I didn't even know about the concept of vacation days (I guess they must have told me when I started but maybe I wasn't listening...). So I'd just take off for two or three weeks whenever there was nothing big pending and I happened to feel like a break. To their great credit (in my eyes!), nobody ever said a thing about this. Just before I left I found out that the receptionist had taken to noting down when I came in just so they had some sort of record of which days I worked (so I guess they missed the days I came in after 5pm, but hey). Sadly, I am now aware of vacation days, and duly check with my manager before taking time off... TT
  - memsom 13y ago
    You are my new hero.
- cryoshon 13y ago
  People accept the current situation for two reasons: 1. Protestant Work Ethic (work is morally good, not-work is morally bad, therefore do work) 2. Capitalism race to the bottom (if you take 2 vacation days, the company can fire you and hire someone who will take only one, then fire him for someone who will take none) It really, really sucks. But if you get any ideas about standing up for your rights or organizing your labor, remember that the nail that stands up is hammered down. That, plus most coworkers will look at you bug-eyed if you propose that working conditions can be improved by worker organization and negotiation with employers-- after all, they're just trying to do their part and earn their portion, not get involved in some scary organized/unionized/socialist political mess. There's not even a cultural foundation to build something like a campaign for more sensible vacation policy. Indeed, the cultural foundation is predisposed against such things.
roel_v 13y ago
"Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want." Have you ever worked for yourself? Because I can guarantee you, unless you bill $500 / hour and have a lifestyle you can sustain on $4000 / month, you will never 'work when you want, where you want'. Ferris is a charlatan - like most self-help books, there are some fundamentally good (if vague) ideas in his books, but please don't fall in the trap of believing that what he describes is doable as easy as he makes it out to be, and/or in a sustainable way. (I work for myself, and I prefer it over working for a boss, but in the end it's still the same bullshit you need to put up with - and then some).
- chai_t 13y ago
  You're right about all of the self help books, however, I could live like a king on $4k a month. Its a matter of perspective and dedication.
  - pistle 13y ago
    You obviously have never seen how a king lives. At $4k, you will live like the median American. Maybe that looks good if you're from $1/day but, it's not nearly royal ever.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      The median American simply does not earn $48k/year with one salary.
      - monkeynotes 13y ago
        Median income in the US is about $52k http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/politics/us-median-income-rises-but-is-still-6-below-its-2007-peak.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/politics/us-median-inco...
        13y ago
BrownBuffalo 13y ago
Not knocking on my folks in Europe, but if you've ever had to deal with a business relationship with anyone in the EURO-ZONE during the month of December - forget it. It's not to say its anti-production, but I DO want to say a healthy lifestyle as a company owner is based on moderation. There are times when you need to do that 13 consecutive-day hack-o-thon, but those are rare. If you build interatively and not trap yourself you can easily get away once a week to seclusion w/o disrupting the balance of things - even if its a tech start-up. It's scale of economy that applies to your personal life/work balance.
tootie 13y ago
Learn to ignore pressue and do what's best for you. Personally, I would rather crank on an app then hang out with my mother-in-law, but that's me.

thrush 13y ago

I have to say that I think the big takeaway is radically different. Riding off the marathon analogy, taking vacations is critical to prevent burning out. In the long run it will keep you more productive and in turn be better for the company. Tim Ferris has some great things to say, but there's also the inherent risk that when working alone and taking a vacation, no one else is there to watch your back. Culture at some companies is definitely more what like what you described, particularly at finance firms, but there are definitely cultural shifts happening right now as less college grads are going straight to finance every year, allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases. It seems like your situation is very different from that though. Working at a small startup is really hard, particularly when you already have a family. I wish you and your startup the best of luck in the coming year.

michaelochurch 13y ago
allured by the perks that tech firms have to offer such as unlimited PTO in some cases. "Unlimited PTO" is usually a bad thing, at least in startups. I don't like vacation tracking-- I think it's a waste of electrons and ink-- but the one company over 10 people where I worked that had "unlimited vacation" was a place where 2 weeks would usually get a person fired for "culture fit". I'd be more inclined to work for a company that offered 5 weeks (more than I need, at this age) than one that offered "unlimited". If nothing else, the former is better because it gives you the ability to say, "I'm used to 5 weeks" in negotiating a job offer and increasing the likelihood of a match. If you say, "I'm used to 'unlimited vacation'" you make it sound like you worked at a disorganized company and you won't get matched.
- kelnos 13y ago
  In the latter case, you can simply say, "I'm used to X weeks", where X is the number of weeks per year that you personally usually took off while on the "unlimited" plan.
- bonemachine 13y ago
  Yeah, it's basically just a gimmick. When I see "unlimited" PTO mentioned in job ads, I get the sense that someone put it in there because they got the idea (from some medium post or somewhere) that this is what all the other "it" startups are offering, and so hence, they should, too. Without like, you know, taking a couple of seconds to think about what it actually means.

grecy 13y ago

> a lot of companies don't care, these are the rules and you accept them or not. Most people accept them - they feel like they have to. Keep in mind you're only talking about America among developed countries. All others have much more leave, maternity, sick days mandated by law, and people take them.

zackbrown 13y ago
Legislation aside, I think it's important to note the US's cultural distinctness here (probably in an unhealthy way.) I spent a year after college backpacking, and I was surprised to find that productivity and travel aren't mutually exclusive, nor are travel and vacation the same thing. I think this notion is more widespread in other cultures (as you say, from many other more developed countries) and from that stems legislation. Based on my experiences, I do firmly believe that most of us would benefit by getting out of our home countries, more often and for longer.
f_salmon 13y ago
Yup, “Vacations are for the weak” is most certainly a very effective way of disguising the reality: “Vacations are for the affluent/rich”
- gbog 13y ago
  Well, you can be not so rich and still take holidays, and enjoy them, why not? All travels do not need to bring you to expensive places.
  - Blahah 13y ago
    And all holiday need not involve travel. My ideal holiday would be a week at home with a stack of old sci-fi novels, Mariokart Wii and a long walk in the countryside every day.
  - grecy 13y ago
    >All travels do not need to bring you to expensive places. Absolutely. But tens of millions of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, so they can't even afford to take a week or two off and stay at home reading/relaxing/playing with the kids/whatever. Basically, they are slaves, they just don't know it.

crassus 13y ago

Developers underestimate their value and their ability to say "no". If you are a productive coder, the job market is great. If you take vacation assertively (say, six weeks a year) bosses simply can't afford to object.

com2kid 13y ago

> On one hand, it's really sad that we're so work obsessed here - money is more important than people so much of the time. Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our small part to make the world a better place? Then again I'm not good at vacations. I don't switch off well, I'm the guy reading a book or playing a game while watching TV. Heck at times I'll play two video games at once, or play a game while reading an article. A two second pause in action in one game is plenty of time to alt tab out, read half a sentence, and alt-tab back in. Heck two seconds feels like an eternity at times! > Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Nope, although a good profit sharing plan would be appreciated! I love working within a team of people, we can get a lot more done together than as individuals!

melling 13y ago
If you can't enjoy yourself that's up to you. Don't take your vacation but it shouldn't impact everyone else's ability to take one. Many people want to travel, spend more time with family or friends, or just have a more interesting journey in life. Everyone is different.
benmathes 13y ago
I love your energy and appetite for life. I might suggest looking into the Myth of Multitasking: https://www.google.com/search?q=the+myth+of+multitasking https://www.google.com/search?q=the+myth+of+multitasking
nickonline 13y ago
I don't switch off either, one of my former housemates has a photo he thinks is amazing of me playing 2 computer games while watching a movie and texting. But I've recently signed on with a company with around ~6.5 weeks leave a year. I already have it worked out: - I go to Hawaii for a week, to Surf. - I'm going to New Zealand for a week, to Ski. - I'll be buying an around the world trip for the other 4 weeks. All of these will be very active and I don't have to turn off I'll have my laptop with me at all times. > Who says it is about money? What if it is about making an impact upon the world? About creating products that touch millions of lives, about doing our small part to make the world a better place? I find this hard to swallow, if you're talking about an amazing piece of software it might take X hours to build, if it's cleaning up the oceans it might take Y hours, either way a holiday only delays that and allows you time to yourself.

shalalala 13y ago

Reading your post was refreshing. Thank you!

adriand 13y ago

> I did a vacation a few years ago where my wife and mother in-law went to Spain. It was awesome, my first time there, but I was 'pressured' by work to keep crankin on our app. It was such bullshit and I was really pissed about that pressure - vacation was not vacation. I recently experienced something similar but possibly even stupider. At the end of November I caught the flu from my niece and took a very rare sick day off work. I laid in bed and slept and felt miserable, which is totally expected, of course. The ridiculous part was the fact I also felt guilty for doing nothing all day except lay around and sleep. Here I was, totally unfit for doing any work at all, experiencing guilt for not working and also for not doing anything around the house. This is unhealthy and I only partially relate it to being part of the tech community. I think another big part of it is my upbringing in a traditional, immigrant Protestant family with a powerful work ethic. That can help you get ahead but it also brings with it a lot of bullshit.

kamaal 13y ago
I feel a lot like that, And I know many hard working people who feel like that. I don't think there is any thing wrong with that kind of an attitude. And I can also assure that's some thing not restricted to our profession alone. A lot of people have to be in the game to feel comfortable. There are tons of people who are supposedly in retirement but still put in crazy hours to keep themselves sane. Beyond the craving to be seen by your own self as productive. Showing up for work has other benefits, like socializing, meeting people, knowing things, current affairs and continuous learning. None of that is possible sitting at home. Another thing that I see among people who while away time at home is their attitude towards their family. If there is some one around more productive ego clashes are inevitable. And human mind always seems to converge towards doubts, uncertainty, fear and in general negative emotions when left alone.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I don't think there is any thing wrong with that kind of an attitude. Other people understand what's wrong with it, sometimes on their deathbed.

feralmoan 13y ago

No, companies do not care and they have no imperative to do so (old-guard companies, at least). That's why its perfectly OK to call them out on their crap and take your holidays when you need them. If they're a big company, their cost/benefit will probably run lower than cost/benefit to your sanity (and your partners sanity, and your family, and your friends etc etc.). Being a grown up means you take what you need, because like your own life, a companies existence is temporary and (likely) meaningless. It's not a badge of honor to run yourself into the ground for some brand-x corporate. The US is way off, culturally, in this regard. Wanna screw the 1%, fight for and take your holidays, that's a really good start! :D (disclosure: 4-6 weeks off foreigner in the US going what the hell to 2 weeks leave+no perf. bonus. Its bullshit, I don't get why people roll over and just take it. Love punishment? Validated by being victims? What the hell)

snogglethorpe 13y ago
In my first job doing software development I never quite realized you were supposed to inform them about vacations etc; I didn't even know about the concept of vacation days (I guess they must have told me when I started but maybe I wasn't listening...). So I'd just take off for two or three weeks whenever there was nothing big pending and I happened to feel like a break. To their great credit (in my eyes!), nobody ever said a thing about this. Just before I left I found out that the receptionist had taken to noting down when I came in just so they had some sort of record of which days I worked (so I guess they missed the days I came in after 5pm, but hey). Sadly, I am now aware of vacation days, and duly check with my manager before taking time off... TT
- memsom 13y ago
  You are my new hero.
cryoshon 13y ago
People accept the current situation for two reasons: 1. Protestant Work Ethic (work is morally good, not-work is morally bad, therefore do work) 2. Capitalism race to the bottom (if you take 2 vacation days, the company can fire you and hire someone who will take only one, then fire him for someone who will take none) It really, really sucks. But if you get any ideas about standing up for your rights or organizing your labor, remember that the nail that stands up is hammered down. That, plus most coworkers will look at you bug-eyed if you propose that working conditions can be improved by worker organization and negotiation with employers-- after all, they're just trying to do their part and earn their portion, not get involved in some scary organized/unionized/socialist political mess. There's not even a cultural foundation to build something like a campaign for more sensible vacation policy. Indeed, the cultural foundation is predisposed against such things.

roel_v 13y ago

"Ideally, my dream job is to just work for myself (I'm sure that's everyone else's too). Sure, there are tradeoffs with that, but there's something about working when you want, where you want." Have you ever worked for yourself? Because I can guarantee you, unless you bill $500 / hour and have a lifestyle you can sustain on $4000 / month, you will never 'work when you want, where you want'. Ferris is a charlatan - like most self-help books, there are some fundamentally good (if vague) ideas in his books, but please don't fall in the trap of believing that what he describes is doable as easy as he makes it out to be, and/or in a sustainable way. (I work for myself, and I prefer it over working for a boss, but in the end it's still the same bullshit you need to put up with - and then some).

chai_t 13y ago
You're right about all of the self help books, however, I could live like a king on $4k a month. Its a matter of perspective and dedication.
- pistle 13y ago
  You obviously have never seen how a king lives. At $4k, you will live like the median American. Maybe that looks good if you're from $1/day but, it's not nearly royal ever.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    The median American simply does not earn $48k/year with one salary.
    - monkeynotes 13y ago
      Median income in the US is about $52k http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/politics/us-median-income-rises-but-is-still-6-below-its-2007-peak.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/us/politics/us-median-inco...
      - 13y ago

BrownBuffalo 13y ago

Not knocking on my folks in Europe, but if you've ever had to deal with a business relationship with anyone in the EURO-ZONE during the month of December - forget it. It's not to say its anti-production, but I DO want to say a healthy lifestyle as a company owner is based on moderation. There are times when you need to do that 13 consecutive-day hack-o-thon, but those are rare. If you build interatively and not trap yourself you can easily get away once a week to seclusion w/o disrupting the balance of things - even if its a tech start-up. It's scale of economy that applies to your personal life/work balance.

tootie 13y ago

Learn to ignore pressue and do what's best for you. Personally, I would rather crank on an app then hang out with my mother-in-law, but that's me.