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The EU mandates a 20-day minimum. A country that doesn't require 20 days of vacation (and not the pooled bullshit that combines sick leave and vacation) can't g

The EU mandates a 20-day minimum. A country that doesn't require 20 days of vacation (and not the pooled bullshit that combines sick leave and vacation) can't get into the EU. In that context, a 2 week per year limit is positively inexcusable in 2013, when the civilized world (which the US ought to join, but hasn't; see also, health insurance) knows better.

_delirium 13y ago
The gap is even bigger if you consider that most EU countries also have ~2 weeks of fixed statutory holidays that aren't included in the 20 days, while most U.S. companies give only between 0 and 3 "free" fixed holidays (Thanksgiving and Christmas are the most common; sometimes there's a 3rd floating one that can be used for a holiday of the employee's choice, such as Yom Kippur or Good Friday). So more or less all Europeans get at least 6 weeks off per year. In the wealthier EU countries it's often 7 or 8, if you count both fixed and movable vacation (e.g. the legal minimum in Denmark is 5 weeks movable + 9 fixed days).
- derekp7 13y ago
  Almost all the companies I've worked for gave Christmas Day, New years day, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Memorial, and Labor days. Many also through in Christmas Eve, and day after Thanksgiving, plus 2 floating holidays. One thing I'm not sure how I feel about, is the combined sick/vacation PTO -- you end up with a larger number of days that you can use as vacation, but usually a smaller number of days overall (my current company is 18 days total PTO, previous company was 5 weeks). This works out great for people like me, who never need to take sick days (if I have a bad cold, I can work from home usually). Now what would work really good (and what I think my current company had before I started), is one vacation pool, which us use when you are going to be off for 2 or more consecutive days, and a separate large pool of PTO days for either under-the-weather days, actual illnesses, or "fix the garage door / wait for Cable installer" days. Another thing to look for, is how the vacation is rolled over. The best is where you earn X.something hours every paycheck, and can be sitting at any one time on what you would earn in 2 years. So a previous employer (Motorola) gave me 3 weeks a year, but I was always sitting on 6 weeks available until I had to take some time off to avoid losing new accumulation.
  - wmt 13y ago
    I remember reading the Dilbert http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-02-12/ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-02-12/ as a teen and being really surprised learning later that the joke, Catbert eliminating sick days and making employees use vacation days for them, was not a ridiculous caricature but reality. U.S. workers really need to revive the labor unions, it's unfortunate that the population has been so effectively persuaded into regarding them as a bad thing. Sure they can make a dent to the profitability, but the improved quality of living makes it worth it.
    - derekp7 13y ago
      The biggest evil of labor unions is the fact that in many cases, they are a necessity. It's not that I'd rather not be part of a union, but I'd rather have the type of employment where unions aren't needed, or even beneficial. But this only happens when the work you do is both skilled, and in short supply, unfortunately.
      - _delirium 13y ago
        Even in cases where there is some leverage (due to work being skilled/scarce), I'd often like someone to negotiate on my behalf collectively. I'm not an expert on employment law, on "gotchas" in employment contracts, or on what my rights are under local law, and I don't really want to become one. And I don't want to fight every individual battle over and over again when many of us have similar preferences. For example, why should I have to fight every company over noncompete clauses and "we own all your weekend IP" clauses? Even if I could win, this is a huge duplicated effort if every one of us has to argue this same point, and I'm not a contract lawyer or professional negotiator in any case. I'd rather delegate my negotiation authority to some association of technologists that negotiated at least baseline employment conditions. I guess an alternative model is to take it really collective and just have the state pass laws mandating working conditions that all employers have to follow, that way nobody needs to negotiate those conditions. That's the approach California took with just banning noncompetes by statute, for example.
    - _delirium 13y ago
- thetrb 13y ago
  I don't think "most" U.S. companies only give between 0 and 3 holidays. Every U.S. company I ever worked at at least had the following holidays: New Year , Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Day after Thanksgiving, Christmas. And then usually there are 2 or 3 other holidays depending on the company.
mcb3k 13y ago
How does that really work? Like, the company I work for gives 10 paid days off, plus 10 national holidays, plus a couple of days of sick leave, which gives 20 days off a year (honestly, it's a more than that, but that's what it says in the handbook). Is that similar to the EU, or is it 20 paid days off plus holidays, plus some sick leave, or is it just 20 paid days a year plus some sick leave?
- dirktheman 13y ago
  Here in The Netherlands we have an infinite number of sick days. You can be sick for up to a year, after that the government takes over. You take a 30% cut, but at least you have an income. Here it's at least 24-25 days off, plus holidays (6, easter, ascension, pentecost, 2 days Christmas and January 1st). Sick leave doesn't count as off days. When you get sick during your time off and you consult a doctor those days don't count, too. Mind you that The Netherlands, although liberal compared to the US, ranks amongst the lowest number of paid time off in Western Europe. I'm not complaining though, 25 days is a sweet spot for me: 3 weeks summer holiday, 1 week in the winter (goodbye dreary, cold days, hello sunshine!) and some days for personal stuff. I work part-time (4 days a week), so I get 20 days of paid vacation instead of 25, but for every week I take off they subtract only 4 days. The combination of a decent amount of paid time off and the abiliy to work part-time makes for a much, much healthier work-life balance. I really hope this is something you guys across the pond will take over someday. Edit for clarification: I realize i make it sound like we have some kind of socialist paradise here. There's another side to this: a heavy tax burden. With all the income tax, property tax, VAT (21%) and ridiculous gas prices (about $6.60 per gallon) life isn't exactly cheap here.
  - Florin_Andrei 13y ago
    > There's another side to this: a heavy tax burden. With all the income tax, property tax, VAT (21%) and ridiculous gas prices (about $6.60 per gallon) life isn't exactly cheap here. Life seems cheap in the US - until you realize you need to save like crazy: for sending kids to college, for retirement, etc. After you factor all that stuff in, it's much less rosy than it seems at first sight.
  - 13y ago

_delirium 13y ago

The gap is even bigger if you consider that most EU countries also have ~2 weeks of fixed statutory holidays that aren't included in the 20 days, while most U.S. companies give only between 0 and 3 "free" fixed holidays (Thanksgiving and Christmas are the most common; sometimes there's a 3rd floating one that can be used for a holiday of the employee's choice, such as Yom Kippur or Good Friday). So more or less all Europeans get at least 6 weeks off per year. In the wealthier EU countries it's often 7 or 8, if you count both fixed and movable vacation (e.g. the legal minimum in Denmark is 5 weeks movable + 9 fixed days).

derekp7 13y ago
Almost all the companies I've worked for gave Christmas Day, New years day, Thanksgiving, July 4th, Memorial, and Labor days. Many also through in Christmas Eve, and day after Thanksgiving, plus 2 floating holidays. One thing I'm not sure how I feel about, is the combined sick/vacation PTO -- you end up with a larger number of days that you can use as vacation, but usually a smaller number of days overall (my current company is 18 days total PTO, previous company was 5 weeks). This works out great for people like me, who never need to take sick days (if I have a bad cold, I can work from home usually). Now what would work really good (and what I think my current company had before I started), is one vacation pool, which us use when you are going to be off for 2 or more consecutive days, and a separate large pool of PTO days for either under-the-weather days, actual illnesses, or "fix the garage door / wait for Cable installer" days. Another thing to look for, is how the vacation is rolled over. The best is where you earn X.something hours every paycheck, and can be sitting at any one time on what you would earn in 2 years. So a previous employer (Motorola) gave me 3 weeks a year, but I was always sitting on 6 weeks available until I had to take some time off to avoid losing new accumulation.
- wmt 13y ago
  I remember reading the Dilbert http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-02-12/ http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-02-12/ as a teen and being really surprised learning later that the joke, Catbert eliminating sick days and making employees use vacation days for them, was not a ridiculous caricature but reality. U.S. workers really need to revive the labor unions, it's unfortunate that the population has been so effectively persuaded into regarding them as a bad thing. Sure they can make a dent to the profitability, but the improved quality of living makes it worth it.
  - derekp7 13y ago
    The biggest evil of labor unions is the fact that in many cases, they are a necessity. It's not that I'd rather not be part of a union, but I'd rather have the type of employment where unions aren't needed, or even beneficial. But this only happens when the work you do is both skilled, and in short supply, unfortunately.
    - _delirium 13y ago
      Even in cases where there is some leverage (due to work being skilled/scarce), I'd often like someone to negotiate on my behalf collectively. I'm not an expert on employment law, on "gotchas" in employment contracts, or on what my rights are under local law, and I don't really want to become one. And I don't want to fight every individual battle over and over again when many of us have similar preferences. For example, why should I have to fight every company over noncompete clauses and "we own all your weekend IP" clauses? Even if I could win, this is a huge duplicated effort if every one of us has to argue this same point, and I'm not a contract lawyer or professional negotiator in any case. I'd rather delegate my negotiation authority to some association of technologists that negotiated at least baseline employment conditions. I guess an alternative model is to take it really collective and just have the state pass laws mandating working conditions that all employers have to follow, that way nobody needs to negotiate those conditions. That's the approach California took with just banning noncompetes by statute, for example.
  - _delirium 13y ago
thetrb 13y ago
I don't think "most" U.S. companies only give between 0 and 3 holidays. Every U.S. company I ever worked at at least had the following holidays: New Year , Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Day after Thanksgiving, Christmas. And then usually there are 2 or 3 other holidays depending on the company.

mcb3k 13y ago

How does that really work? Like, the company I work for gives 10 paid days off, plus 10 national holidays, plus a couple of days of sick leave, which gives 20 days off a year (honestly, it's a more than that, but that's what it says in the handbook). Is that similar to the EU, or is it 20 paid days off plus holidays, plus some sick leave, or is it just 20 paid days a year plus some sick leave?

dirktheman 13y ago
Here in The Netherlands we have an infinite number of sick days. You can be sick for up to a year, after that the government takes over. You take a 30% cut, but at least you have an income. Here it's at least 24-25 days off, plus holidays (6, easter, ascension, pentecost, 2 days Christmas and January 1st). Sick leave doesn't count as off days. When you get sick during your time off and you consult a doctor those days don't count, too. Mind you that The Netherlands, although liberal compared to the US, ranks amongst the lowest number of paid time off in Western Europe. I'm not complaining though, 25 days is a sweet spot for me: 3 weeks summer holiday, 1 week in the winter (goodbye dreary, cold days, hello sunshine!) and some days for personal stuff. I work part-time (4 days a week), so I get 20 days of paid vacation instead of 25, but for every week I take off they subtract only 4 days. The combination of a decent amount of paid time off and the abiliy to work part-time makes for a much, much healthier work-life balance. I really hope this is something you guys across the pond will take over someday. Edit for clarification: I realize i make it sound like we have some kind of socialist paradise here. There's another side to this: a heavy tax burden. With all the income tax, property tax, VAT (21%) and ridiculous gas prices (about $6.60 per gallon) life isn't exactly cheap here.
- Florin_Andrei 13y ago
  > There's another side to this: a heavy tax burden. With all the income tax, property tax, VAT (21%) and ridiculous gas prices (about $6.60 per gallon) life isn't exactly cheap here. Life seems cheap in the US - until you realize you need to save like crazy: for sending kids to college, for retirement, etc. After you factor all that stuff in, it's much less rosy than it seems at first sight.
- 13y ago