4 ms·

It is bit more complex. Socialism discriminated 'intellectuals' in favor of 'proletariat'. For example son of doctor had lower chances compared to son of facto

by altero 13y ago

It is bit more complex. Socialism discriminated 'intellectuals' in favor of 'proletariat'. For example son of doctor had lower chances compared to son of factory worker. Jews were perceived as intellectuals. Similar discrimination is today in US. Jews are discriminated for being white.

forktheif 13y ago
Anti-Semitism in Russia is a lot older than Socialism.
- altero 13y ago
  Please read something about Russian history. Most early socialists leaders were Jews. Some prominent anti-socialism authors are bordering antisemitism (Solzhenitsyn). Places at universities were not 'for everyone'. One needed political connections, family history and bribes. If your father would emigrate to west, you may forget about higher education. Most restricted were elite humanitarian studies (philosophy, film-making...). Technical studies were bit more free, but still had lot of restrictions.
  - Jongseong 13y ago
    How does any of that contradict the assertion that antisemitism is older than Socialism? Are you denying that antisemitism continued under the Soviet Union, even after the death of Stalin, couched in the language of anti-Zionism? If you are saying that being Jewish was only one of several reasons for being discriminated against in the Soviet Union, then I agree. If you deny that Jewishness had nothing to do with it and it all had to do with being intellectuals, not having the right connections, etc., then you are losing me.
    - altero 13y ago
      > Are you denying that antisemitism continued under the Soviet Union Yes I do. There were so many Jews in soviet party, there is even "theory" that soviet revolution was Jewish conspiracy. [1]. Stalin initially supported Israel state with weapons. Antisemitism started in 60ties, after Israel becomed US oriented and several people from soviet union emigrated there. After that several soviet jews had relatives on west and were perceived as 'politically unreliable' and potential spies. There were mainly political reasons for discrimination, it really turned into antisemitism in 90ties after soviet union. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#Jews_in_the_Bolshevik_party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#Jews_in_the_B...
      - Jongseong 13y ago
        So the whole Doctor's Plot purge in the fifties just so happened to target mostly Jews and people with Jewish names? This was the most overtly antisemitic episode in Soviet history. Just because Jews were overrepresented in the Bolshevik Revolution, it doesn't mean that antisemitism simply disappeared overnight. Remember, the most prominent Jew in the Bolshevik Revolution was Leon Trotsky, who became Stalin's enemy. As for Stalin's initial support of Israel, well, he initially signed a secret non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany as well. One can read too much into foreign policy decisions. Stalin, despite being non-Russian himself, targeted non-Russians in the Soviet Union in purges and deportations on the pretext that they were politically unreliable and potential spies. You can choose to take these excuses at face value, but in the end you have to recognize that in effect they suffered largely because of being the wrong ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Unio...
        altero 13y ago
        Stalin killed millions, mostly Russians. For example huge part of army officers were executed just before German invasion. He hated everyone, Jews were not exception.
        Jongseong 13y ago
        Yes, Stalin killed people of all backgrounds. But so-called reactionary nationalities were specifically targeted for NKVD operations. For example, the NKVD would round up people with Polish-sounding names from telephone books during the Great Purge. Entire peoples were deported to Central Asia—you can't deny an ethnic dimension to his Terror. Whatever Stalin's initial intentions were for the Doctors' Plot case, it ended up taking on a clearly antisemitic character, with the media hyping up the threat of Zionism. We may note that while Khrushchev denounced the Doctors' Plot as having been fabricated by Stalin, he didn't denounce the antisemitic rhetoric.
        13y ago
    - ommunist 13y ago
      Emm... if memory serves, Zionism is quite a new thing, and antisemitism prospered since we collectively killed Jesus.
      - Jongseong 13y ago
        Take a look at what I said. I said that after the death of Stalin, antisemitism in the Soviet Union was couched in the language of anti-Zionism. Stalin died in 1953, by which time the state of Israel was already a few years old. Incidentally, Zionism dates from the end of the 19th century.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        ommunist 13y ago
        You maybe quite right, but from materials I presented in this thread one may suggest that there was a policy of enforced brain supply to regional applied sciences institutions, that is why guys were refused entry to Moscow best universities. The reasons for this hidden regulation may have been purely pragmatic.
woofyman 13y ago
In my personal experience, Jews are discriminated for being non-Christian.
- stefantalpalaru 13y ago
  Not an issue in communist countries where atheism was the state's policy.
Jongseong 13y ago
Unless you claim that the officials of MGU went great lengths to keep young Edward Frenkel out of the university for some other reason than his Jewish surname, you are giving an ex post facto excuse for the continued and long-standing discrimination against Jews that the Soviets inherited from the Russian Empire. Although it was nowhere as bad as in the Old World, Jews were historically discriminated against in the U.S.—universities had Jewish quotas, for example. This had nothing to do with "being white", even if we limit ourselves to white European Jews. The whole "reverse discrimination" angle you try to bring in is neither here nor there.
- altero 13y ago
  > Unless you claim that the officials of MGU went great lengths to keep young Edward Frenkel out of the university for some other reason than his Jewish surname That is exactly what I am saying. Examiners could got orders to fail him, if for example his uncle lived on west. Officially there was no discrimination, so it was mostly done by bulling people at exams. White (perhaps even heterosexual male) has statistically lower chances to study for free. It fits definition of discrimination as a glove.
  - Jongseong 13y ago
    What you say might have made sense if not for the fact that countless other Jewish students were similarly denied from MGU. Did they all have uncles that lived in the West? In Frenkel's story, the lady from the correspondence school hears his name and that he wants to apply to MGU, and immediately asks for his nationality. When he replies "Russian", she keeps asking until he replies that his father is Jewish. Then she flat-out says, "Do you know that Jews are not accepted to Moscow University?". I think it is fairly clearly established that this is the reason he was denied a place there.
cema 13y ago
Jews were perceived as intellectuals. Uh... This was so among the regular people, but did not appear to play a large role in the decisions made by the Party (read: party leader). The anti-intellectual official line was stronger in the post-revolutionary times, and still my grandmother had no problem being accepted to Moscow State University (in the 1920s), Department of Chemistry. The Fifth Problem describes a much later time period, mid-1980s (and the problem, in the narrow sense, apparently started in late 1960s). A very different society. Similar discrimination is today in US. Jews are discriminated for being white. We are not specifically discriminated. Yes, as perceived members of the white race category (whatever that means) we are, in effect, discriminated against, whenever Affirmative Action is employed. This kind of discrimination is not quite similar.

by altero 13y ago

forktheif 13y ago

Anti-Semitism in Russia is a lot older than Socialism.

altero 13y ago
Please read something about Russian history. Most early socialists leaders were Jews. Some prominent anti-socialism authors are bordering antisemitism (Solzhenitsyn). Places at universities were not 'for everyone'. One needed political connections, family history and bribes. If your father would emigrate to west, you may forget about higher education. Most restricted were elite humanitarian studies (philosophy, film-making...). Technical studies were bit more free, but still had lot of restrictions.
- Jongseong 13y ago
  How does any of that contradict the assertion that antisemitism is older than Socialism? Are you denying that antisemitism continued under the Soviet Union, even after the death of Stalin, couched in the language of anti-Zionism? If you are saying that being Jewish was only one of several reasons for being discriminated against in the Soviet Union, then I agree. If you deny that Jewishness had nothing to do with it and it all had to do with being intellectuals, not having the right connections, etc., then you are losing me.
  - altero 13y ago
    > Are you denying that antisemitism continued under the Soviet Union Yes I do. There were so many Jews in soviet party, there is even "theory" that soviet revolution was Jewish conspiracy. [1]. Stalin initially supported Israel state with weapons. Antisemitism started in 60ties, after Israel becomed US oriented and several people from soviet union emigrated there. After that several soviet jews had relatives on west and were perceived as 'politically unreliable' and potential spies. There were mainly political reasons for discrimination, it really turned into antisemitism in 90ties after soviet union. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#Jews_in_the_Bolshevik_party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#Jews_in_the_B...
    - Jongseong 13y ago
      So the whole Doctor's Plot purge in the fifties just so happened to target mostly Jews and people with Jewish names? This was the most overtly antisemitic episode in Soviet history. Just because Jews were overrepresented in the Bolshevik Revolution, it doesn't mean that antisemitism simply disappeared overnight. Remember, the most prominent Jew in the Bolshevik Revolution was Leon Trotsky, who became Stalin's enemy. As for Stalin's initial support of Israel, well, he initially signed a secret non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany as well. One can read too much into foreign policy decisions. Stalin, despite being non-Russian himself, targeted non-Russians in the Soviet Union in purges and deportations on the pretext that they were politically unreliable and potential spies. You can choose to take these excuses at face value, but in the end you have to recognize that in effect they suffered largely because of being the wrong ethnicity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Unio...
      - altero 13y ago
        Stalin killed millions, mostly Russians. For example huge part of army officers were executed just before German invasion. He hated everyone, Jews were not exception.
        Jongseong 13y ago
        Yes, Stalin killed people of all backgrounds. But so-called reactionary nationalities were specifically targeted for NKVD operations. For example, the NKVD would round up people with Polish-sounding names from telephone books during the Great Purge. Entire peoples were deported to Central Asia—you can't deny an ethnic dimension to his Terror. Whatever Stalin's initial intentions were for the Doctors' Plot case, it ended up taking on a clearly antisemitic character, with the media hyping up the threat of Zionism. We may note that while Khrushchev denounced the Doctors' Plot as having been fabricated by Stalin, he didn't denounce the antisemitic rhetoric.
        13y ago
  - ommunist 13y ago
    Emm... if memory serves, Zionism is quite a new thing, and antisemitism prospered since we collectively killed Jesus.
    - Jongseong 13y ago
      Take a look at what I said. I said that after the death of Stalin, antisemitism in the Soviet Union was couched in the language of anti-Zionism. Stalin died in 1953, by which time the state of Israel was already a few years old. Incidentally, Zionism dates from the end of the 19th century.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - ommunist 13y ago
        You maybe quite right, but from materials I presented in this thread one may suggest that there was a policy of enforced brain supply to regional applied sciences institutions, that is why guys were refused entry to Moscow best universities. The reasons for this hidden regulation may have been purely pragmatic.

woofyman 13y ago

In my personal experience, Jews are discriminated for being non-Christian.

stefantalpalaru 13y ago
Not an issue in communist countries where atheism was the state's policy.

Jongseong 13y ago

Unless you claim that the officials of MGU went great lengths to keep young Edward Frenkel out of the university for some other reason than his Jewish surname, you are giving an ex post facto excuse for the continued and long-standing discrimination against Jews that the Soviets inherited from the Russian Empire. Although it was nowhere as bad as in the Old World, Jews were historically discriminated against in the U.S.—universities had Jewish quotas, for example. This had nothing to do with "being white", even if we limit ourselves to white European Jews. The whole "reverse discrimination" angle you try to bring in is neither here nor there.

altero 13y ago
> Unless you claim that the officials of MGU went great lengths to keep young Edward Frenkel out of the university for some other reason than his Jewish surname That is exactly what I am saying. Examiners could got orders to fail him, if for example his uncle lived on west. Officially there was no discrimination, so it was mostly done by bulling people at exams. White (perhaps even heterosexual male) has statistically lower chances to study for free. It fits definition of discrimination as a glove.
- Jongseong 13y ago
  What you say might have made sense if not for the fact that countless other Jewish students were similarly denied from MGU. Did they all have uncles that lived in the West? In Frenkel's story, the lady from the correspondence school hears his name and that he wants to apply to MGU, and immediately asks for his nationality. When he replies "Russian", she keeps asking until he replies that his father is Jewish. Then she flat-out says, "Do you know that Jews are not accepted to Moscow University?". I think it is fairly clearly established that this is the reason he was denied a place there.

cema 13y ago

Jews were perceived as intellectuals. Uh... This was so among the regular people, but did not appear to play a large role in the decisions made by the Party (read: party leader). The anti-intellectual official line was stronger in the post-revolutionary times, and still my grandmother had no problem being accepted to Moscow State University (in the 1920s), Department of Chemistry. The Fifth Problem describes a much later time period, mid-1980s (and the problem, in the narrow sense, apparently started in late 1960s). A very different society. Similar discrimination is today in US. Jews are discriminated for being white. We are not specifically discriminated. Yes, as perceived members of the white race category (whatever that means) we are, in effect, discriminated against, whenever Affirmative Action is employed. This kind of discrimination is not quite similar.