6 ms·

The risk with saying "Yes, if.." is that a lot of managers (or clients or whatever) stop listening after the word "Yes". With "No, unless ...", it's a differen

by michh 13y ago

The risk with saying "Yes, if.." is that a lot of managers (or clients or whatever) stop listening after the word "Yes". With "No, unless ...", it's a different story. Then success is dependant on the conditions mentioned and they're much more likely to do their part in making sure those conditions are met. If you said "Yes, if" they'll often just remember you promised you could do it and leave it at that.

thirdsight 13y ago
Exactly this. I had the misfortune of working with a salesperson who only read the "yes" part in an email and sold a lemon to a client for not enough cash. I protested immediately after the sale (when I was informed of the technical specification) that all the conditions were meticulously described but ignored and presented the email. Management decided to take the risk of going forward. The project failed. I was still blamed for it because by then I was an easy scapegoat. Never received an apology and lost a good chunk of my reputation at the time. I haven't been an employee and have been my own salesperson since then (15 years ago). Less politics and ass covering between my ears. Tiny little things like this can make or break you.
calinet6 13y ago
Bingo. It's a management problem, not an individual problem. Management can turn "Yes, if..." people into mindless drones over time by constantly shooting them down and feeding them negativity. And where does that negativity come from? The next level up; someone above that manager telling them they can't do things and what they should be doing instead, or rewarding them for aligning their team's goals with the status quo. More often than not, it's driven by fear and the danger of getting fired, or a strong desire to fit into an existing structure and climb the ladder. In my opinion, most people will be "Yes, if..." people given the right cultural conditions; this looking at people as dichotomous types set-in-stone is dangerous and in my experience incorrect. It is as divisive and ineffective as the current US political climate. If someone has become a No person, it's likely because they're being moulded into that by their management, or has been in the past. Fix the environment and create an innovation-positive management structure and they'd probably jump at the opportunity to take more risks. I have seen this happen first-hand. W. Edwards Deming, 8th point: "Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
- bernardom 13y ago
  > Management can turn "Yes, if..." people into mindless drones over time by constantly shooting them down and feeding them negativity. And individuals can turn everyone else into mindless drones by constantly saying "no, because of XYZ." Blaming "management" is so fashionable, and so counterproductive.
  - calinet6 13y ago
    Counterproductive from an individual perspective; the only means of productivity from an organizational perspective.
  - dreamfactory 13y ago
    I take management blaming here to mean that this is a systemic problem that can can only be solved at an organisational level (rather than blaming a caste within that org).
benihana 13y ago
I love this comment; it so beautifully and unintentionally proves the OPs point. It's like the perfect comment to represent Hacker News. In an article about Can Do vs Can't Do culture, it piggybacks on an insightful top comment that takes an optimistic approach and provides the kind of cynical pessimism and tries to shoot down the Can Do nature of the OP's comment. But the best part of it, the most beautiful part, is that it places the blame on the cause of all problems for hackers: the manager. Literally, managers are the only reason the world isn't amazing, they're the ones that shoot down all my brilliant ideas.
- lucisferre 13y ago
  It seems somewhat unfortunate to distil this down to where there are only two possible interpretations of someones idea, right and wrong. I don't think you could have straw manned his point any more either. The entire idea of "can do vs can't do" is such a platitude anyways, it's not even remotely interesting. It takes all nuance away from communication. As if just because someone has to make their position clearer than a statement like "yes, if" in order to manage the expectations of others that they just don't have a "can do" attitude and by implication are destined to fail.
  - bernardom 13y ago
    How is "no, unless" clearer than a statement like "yes, if?" I think the entire point is that they say the same thing while projecting a completely different attitude. The way that someone responds to the question of "can we do this" is very important.
    - epochwolf 13y ago
      Because there's plenty of people that don't listen past the first word.
      - kenjackson 13y ago
        Then there are MUCH bigger problems than the first word anyways.
RokStdy 13y ago
I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I don't like this point. Sure, often people stop listening after Yes,... but... You don't have to accept that. The general excuse, "Managers man... they suck", is something that really bothers me. Why not stand up for your idea, insist upon the Yes, IF... and hold management accountable? Document concerns and don't be shy about raising them. In my experience I have seen people make the assumption that management will not listen and therefor not act more often than I've seen management ignore feedback. That's not to say that management wouldn't ignore you, or dismiss negativity in favor of the "yes", but the defeatist attitude as it relates to 'management' troubles me. Again, Michh, not to give you a hard time. Maybe I'm naive.
- andrewflnr 13y ago
  If you have the power to hold management responsible, great. But you probably don't. See your sibling comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6999303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6999303 . Documented concerns ignored, including after they were proven right. Credit rises, while blame falls.
aaronem 13y ago
That's why you start your response with "Here's how we can do that:"
boomlinde 13y ago
If this is what your managers do, I feel sorry for you
memracom 13y ago
If you have a boss like that then you could always form a habit of saying the "if" part first. If we just deal with the issue of X and solve the Y problem, then yes, we can most certainly do it. I have some ideas on how to deal with X and I think that if we bring Marketing into the discussion then we should be able to make a plan to address Y. The above paragraph is still "can do" and it is arguably a better way to answer such questions because it is not as easy for a listener to misinterpret it.

by michh 13y ago

thirdsight 13y ago

Exactly this. I had the misfortune of working with a salesperson who only read the "yes" part in an email and sold a lemon to a client for not enough cash. I protested immediately after the sale (when I was informed of the technical specification) that all the conditions were meticulously described but ignored and presented the email. Management decided to take the risk of going forward. The project failed. I was still blamed for it because by then I was an easy scapegoat. Never received an apology and lost a good chunk of my reputation at the time. I haven't been an employee and have been my own salesperson since then (15 years ago). Less politics and ass covering between my ears. Tiny little things like this can make or break you.

calinet6 13y ago

Bingo. It's a management problem, not an individual problem. Management can turn "Yes, if..." people into mindless drones over time by constantly shooting them down and feeding them negativity. And where does that negativity come from? The next level up; someone above that manager telling them they can't do things and what they should be doing instead, or rewarding them for aligning their team's goals with the status quo. More often than not, it's driven by fear and the danger of getting fired, or a strong desire to fit into an existing structure and climb the ladder. In my opinion, most people will be "Yes, if..." people given the right cultural conditions; this looking at people as dichotomous types set-in-stone is dangerous and in my experience incorrect. It is as divisive and ineffective as the current US political climate. If someone has become a No person, it's likely because they're being moulded into that by their management, or has been in the past. Fix the environment and create an innovation-positive management structure and they'd probably jump at the opportunity to take more risks. I have seen this happen first-hand. W. Edwards Deming, 8th point: "Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

bernardom 13y ago
> Management can turn "Yes, if..." people into mindless drones over time by constantly shooting them down and feeding them negativity. And individuals can turn everyone else into mindless drones by constantly saying "no, because of XYZ." Blaming "management" is so fashionable, and so counterproductive.
- calinet6 13y ago
  Counterproductive from an individual perspective; the only means of productivity from an organizational perspective.
- dreamfactory 13y ago
  I take management blaming here to mean that this is a systemic problem that can can only be solved at an organisational level (rather than blaming a caste within that org).

benihana 13y ago

I love this comment; it so beautifully and unintentionally proves the OPs point. It's like the perfect comment to represent Hacker News. In an article about Can Do vs Can't Do culture, it piggybacks on an insightful top comment that takes an optimistic approach and provides the kind of cynical pessimism and tries to shoot down the Can Do nature of the OP's comment. But the best part of it, the most beautiful part, is that it places the blame on the cause of all problems for hackers: the manager. Literally, managers are the only reason the world isn't amazing, they're the ones that shoot down all my brilliant ideas.

lucisferre 13y ago
It seems somewhat unfortunate to distil this down to where there are only two possible interpretations of someones idea, right and wrong. I don't think you could have straw manned his point any more either. The entire idea of "can do vs can't do" is such a platitude anyways, it's not even remotely interesting. It takes all nuance away from communication. As if just because someone has to make their position clearer than a statement like "yes, if" in order to manage the expectations of others that they just don't have a "can do" attitude and by implication are destined to fail.
- bernardom 13y ago
  How is "no, unless" clearer than a statement like "yes, if?" I think the entire point is that they say the same thing while projecting a completely different attitude. The way that someone responds to the question of "can we do this" is very important.
  - epochwolf 13y ago
    Because there's plenty of people that don't listen past the first word.
    - kenjackson 13y ago
      Then there are MUCH bigger problems than the first word anyways.

RokStdy 13y ago

I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I don't like this point. Sure, often people stop listening after Yes,... but... You don't have to accept that. The general excuse, "Managers man... they suck", is something that really bothers me. Why not stand up for your idea, insist upon the Yes, IF... and hold management accountable? Document concerns and don't be shy about raising them. In my experience I have seen people make the assumption that management will not listen and therefor not act more often than I've seen management ignore feedback. That's not to say that management wouldn't ignore you, or dismiss negativity in favor of the "yes", but the defeatist attitude as it relates to 'management' troubles me. Again, Michh, not to give you a hard time. Maybe I'm naive.

andrewflnr 13y ago
If you have the power to hold management responsible, great. But you probably don't. See your sibling comment, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6999303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6999303 . Documented concerns ignored, including after they were proven right. Credit rises, while blame falls.

aaronem 13y ago

That's why you start your response with "Here's how we can do that:"

boomlinde 13y ago

If this is what your managers do, I feel sorry for you

memracom 13y ago

If you have a boss like that then you could always form a habit of saying the "if" part first. If we just deal with the issue of X and solve the Y problem, then yes, we can most certainly do it. I have some ideas on how to deal with X and I think that if we bring Marketing into the discussion then we should be able to make a plan to address Y. The above paragraph is still "can do" and it is arguably a better way to answer such questions because it is not as easy for a listener to misinterpret it.