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Isn't this very similar to earlier claims about the NSA seeing Google's data? Many believed that Google was doing the NSA's bidding. Many others felt that only

Isn't this very similar to earlier claims about the NSA seeing Google's data? Many believed that Google was doing the NSA's bidding. Many others felt that only the polar opposite could be true: That Google rejected the NSA's pleas and thus the data couldn't be seen. It seems to have turned out that fact was somewhere in between -- Google was an involuntary partner, but the NSA could monitor virtually all of their data via the data center to data center links. The same thing could be happening at Apple (or any business): They have all the best intentions in the world and want to build the most secure product they can, but there is a extrajudicial foe that answers to essentially no one.

malandrew 13y ago
Yeah, but we still don't know if anyone in Google provided aid. So long as National Security Letters exist, there will always be the possibility that an employee or business unit has been complicit without anyone who can speak for the company ever finding out.
- corresation 13y ago
  Google explicitly denied voluntarily cooperating or working with the NSA in such a manner. While their denial was picked apart (just as the Apple one is, everyone declaring exclusions and perceived disclaimers), Google's statement effectively eliminated the possibility of an NSL silencing them. An NSL bars you from talking about something, but can't compel you to publicly lie (nor do I think a company with the might and influence of Google be bullied too easily). Of course this is all talking about Google as a corporation voluntarily doing something. Was someone in Google (or Apple or any other company) working on behalf of the NSA? There was early debates about whether that could even be legal, but at this point it seems that "anything goes" is the pattern, so possibly.
  - hindsightbias 13y ago
    There's absolutely nothing stopping the NSA/CIA from hiring a foreign national to work on their behalf, just like the DGSE could pay an American national in Palo Alto. Whether those employees could operate domestically w/o breaking the laws of their spymaster, maybe not. It's sorta telling to me that Google decided to go encryption on all intra-data after Snowden. No doubt they would have been briefed by agencies that they cooperate with about what the exposures would be. It's more likely that whatever chipsets common across smartphones or routers is the point of exploit. So the NSA and Samsung or whomever have to have a private agreement. Apple/Google don't have a need to know, but you think a few engineers might be curious.

malandrew 13y ago

Yeah, but we still don't know if anyone in Google provided aid. So long as National Security Letters exist, there will always be the possibility that an employee or business unit has been complicit without anyone who can speak for the company ever finding out.

corresation 13y ago
Google explicitly denied voluntarily cooperating or working with the NSA in such a manner. While their denial was picked apart (just as the Apple one is, everyone declaring exclusions and perceived disclaimers), Google's statement effectively eliminated the possibility of an NSL silencing them. An NSL bars you from talking about something, but can't compel you to publicly lie (nor do I think a company with the might and influence of Google be bullied too easily). Of course this is all talking about Google as a corporation voluntarily doing something. Was someone in Google (or Apple or any other company) working on behalf of the NSA? There was early debates about whether that could even be legal, but at this point it seems that "anything goes" is the pattern, so possibly.
- hindsightbias 13y ago
  There's absolutely nothing stopping the NSA/CIA from hiring a foreign national to work on their behalf, just like the DGSE could pay an American national in Palo Alto. Whether those employees could operate domestically w/o breaking the laws of their spymaster, maybe not. It's sorta telling to me that Google decided to go encryption on all intra-data after Snowden. No doubt they would have been briefed by agencies that they cooperate with about what the exposures would be. It's more likely that whatever chipsets common across smartphones or routers is the point of exploit. So the NSA and Samsung or whomever have to have a private agreement. Apple/Google don't have a need to know, but you think a few engineers might be curious.