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I've had this nagging feeling/paranoia the past year, that I'm really not comfortable with the massive amounts of data that google obtains on me. If someone ca

I've had this nagging feeling/paranoia the past year, that I'm really not comfortable with the massive amounts of data that google obtains on me. If someone came along and gave me a better email experience with a calendaring system that I could pay for and be reasonably ensured that my payment was keeping my data private. Id jump off the Google platform relatively quickly.

jsz0 17y ago
Safe from what? Safe from misuse by Google? I think that's a risk you take with any third party provider. Being one of many millions of users does provide some security through obscurity in that respect. Chances are most of us are just not special enough to be legitimate targets. Safe from misuse by bad guys outside of Google via security problems? I'm pretty confident Google has some of the best engineers out there. You also have a strength in numbers thing going for you with Google. Lots of people are looking at it. Google is very high profile -- if they did have a leak you'd at least know about it. I can't say the same about some random provider. They could have half wit engineers who cover up data leaks. You might never know. Even bad providers can have sterling record if they choose not to report problems or simply have a run of good luck until someone copy & pastes the wrong command and every bit gets leaked. Safe from being an anonymous fraction of a statistic when Google aggregates its data? I'd be more worried about my ISP spying on me. Overall I think it's good to be aware of the risks but realistically there isn't a whole lot you can do about it no matter which provider you're using. If you were to separate all your different accounts to different providers you might at least spread the risk out. If you choose to run your own server(s) you quickly become the weakest link in the security chain. Even if you're a pro it probably won't be your full time job to administrate your servers so that already puts you at a disadvantage.
- tome 17y ago
  What worries me about Google is not that it has my data, but that it has a massive cross section of my data: * search records * e-mail * calendaring * documents * which youtube videos I've watched etc. I'm sure it's much more than proportionally easier to abuse this information the wider the spread of it they have.
  - jodrellblank 17y ago
    You wish that's all they have on you - they also own doubleclick, and Google ads, two of the largest web advert providers in the world tracking you as you go to www.unrelated.example.org, and Google Analytics, one of the most popular web tracking extensions also tracking you as you go to www.anysite.example.org. Also any site that pulls graphs in from Google's public graphing API, or a sidebar from blogger or picasa. The bought DejaNews, so anything you post(ed) to Usenet is in their grasp, and they spider the entire web so if they can pull a probable forum name from your existing data then they can try linking them together. If you've ever used Google Maps to find directions, then the most likely place to find directions is from/to your home and from/to your workplace, so they can get highly probable locations for you. (Used it from an iPhone with GPS?). Shop with Google Checkout? Browse with Google Toolbar? Use any of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_products http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_products ?
    - tome 17y ago
      Wow, very good examples! So what can be done to anonymise access to these services? Tor of course is one idea, or a different proxy server. Anything else, or other considerations?
    - dflock 17y ago
      Ok, serious question: what's the worst that could happen? Some internet entity (could be Google, could be someone else) knows everything about me - all my personal details, everything I've ever done on the internet that wasn't encrypted. What's the worst case scenario for me, realistically?
      - sammyo 17y ago
        Serious answer. http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ Ok look, I'm really not trying to make a nut-case argument, but cost of information allows aggregation of badness as well as goodness. Google is an extreme example but the level of information in the hands of a malicious government or other self-interested entity should not be relegated to 'could never happen here'. I've little problem the the current Google, but 10-30 years from now will other forces in the world have access? But the issue is less google than the massive changes tech is making to the world.
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  Safe from what? I can't answer that yet, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to ignore it. We are talking about the world's leading search company. There's no such thing as security through obscurity for them - they find needles in haystacks for a living. We're also talking long term - none of this stuff is going to be deleted, it's only ever going to grow in their collective. What if you do become someone famous or important in twenty years? Safe from misuse by Google? I think that's a risk you take with any third party provider But it's more of a risk from Google for several reasons - 1) they have so much of it, and 2) they're so good at searching and correlating, and 3) they're so big their data is a major drooling point for .gov legislation or hacker interests. Chances are most of us are just not special enough to be legitimate targets. Agreed. But if anyone can automate something they-think-is-benign-but-I-disagree on everyone's data all at once, Google can.
- jules 17y ago
  The problem with Google is that they have all the data in one place. If you use multiple services they all know a lot less about you. This makes it a lot harder for a government or a person in the company to combine the information into a full picture. I agree that the ISP is a huge problem too.
sid 17y ago
Hmmm, i sometimes get that same kind of feeling though i always tell myself, "no it should be ok", they are trusted, smart, respect my privacy my data and benevolant ... I store my emails using gmail, my code for my startup is backed up in my emails as a final restore point should something bad happen to my servers and source control, my design specs, tasks list are all stored within google document, my calculations and budgeting is done using googles spreadsheet. I still trust them and that is why i am still comfortable but to tell you the truth, the slightest glitch or security leak, or signs of evilism would really make me think twice. To add to this discussion a few things i have noticed (could be my paranoia, but who knows ..). A while back during uni there was this company called bullant (not sure if anyone ever heard of them). They had a decent product which consisted of a browser and a backend VM engine. There were a few features of the backend engine that i thought were really good and nice to develop in and generated really great apps that could be delivered over the internet. However i think the product didnt fly because it required users to change and use their own proprietry browser, the change was to drastic for users, it wasnt gradual enough as many users were already used to mozilla/netscape and ie. If i draw the comparisions sometimes i wonder if the introduction of chrome, the new V8 engine and all the hype of SaaS, whether this is a slow movement similar to what bullant all those years back tried to do. I wonder whether slowly and incrementally certain really great google apps will be just that tiny bit slower in ie or ff and slowly over time would certain features of the new great google app that everyone uses and loves stop working in those other browsers requiring us to all change to chrome to get the most out of it ? I sometims think whether the vision is that sometime in the future we all log into our linux/apple/windows computers and for 80% of the time fire up our chrome browsers go straight to our favourite google app saved in our favourites and no longer require 80% of the applications that we now have installed on our PC's ?

jsz0 17y ago

Safe from what? Safe from misuse by Google? I think that's a risk you take with any third party provider. Being one of many millions of users does provide some security through obscurity in that respect. Chances are most of us are just not special enough to be legitimate targets. Safe from misuse by bad guys outside of Google via security problems? I'm pretty confident Google has some of the best engineers out there. You also have a strength in numbers thing going for you with Google. Lots of people are looking at it. Google is very high profile -- if they did have a leak you'd at least know about it. I can't say the same about some random provider. They could have half wit engineers who cover up data leaks. You might never know. Even bad providers can have sterling record if they choose not to report problems or simply have a run of good luck until someone copy & pastes the wrong command and every bit gets leaked. Safe from being an anonymous fraction of a statistic when Google aggregates its data? I'd be more worried about my ISP spying on me. Overall I think it's good to be aware of the risks but realistically there isn't a whole lot you can do about it no matter which provider you're using. If you were to separate all your different accounts to different providers you might at least spread the risk out. If you choose to run your own server(s) you quickly become the weakest link in the security chain. Even if you're a pro it probably won't be your full time job to administrate your servers so that already puts you at a disadvantage.

tome 17y ago
What worries me about Google is not that it has my data, but that it has a massive cross section of my data: * search records * e-mail * calendaring * documents * which youtube videos I've watched etc. I'm sure it's much more than proportionally easier to abuse this information the wider the spread of it they have.
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  You wish that's all they have on you - they also own doubleclick, and Google ads, two of the largest web advert providers in the world tracking you as you go to www.unrelated.example.org, and Google Analytics, one of the most popular web tracking extensions also tracking you as you go to www.anysite.example.org. Also any site that pulls graphs in from Google's public graphing API, or a sidebar from blogger or picasa. The bought DejaNews, so anything you post(ed) to Usenet is in their grasp, and they spider the entire web so if they can pull a probable forum name from your existing data then they can try linking them together. If you've ever used Google Maps to find directions, then the most likely place to find directions is from/to your home and from/to your workplace, so they can get highly probable locations for you. (Used it from an iPhone with GPS?). Shop with Google Checkout? Browse with Google Toolbar? Use any of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_products http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_products ?
  - tome 17y ago
    Wow, very good examples! So what can be done to anonymise access to these services? Tor of course is one idea, or a different proxy server. Anything else, or other considerations?
  - dflock 17y ago
    Ok, serious question: what's the worst that could happen? Some internet entity (could be Google, could be someone else) knows everything about me - all my personal details, everything I've ever done on the internet that wasn't encrypted. What's the worst case scenario for me, realistically?
    - sammyo 17y ago
      Serious answer. http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ Ok look, I'm really not trying to make a nut-case argument, but cost of information allows aggregation of badness as well as goodness. Google is an extreme example but the level of information in the hands of a malicious government or other self-interested entity should not be relegated to 'could never happen here'. I've little problem the the current Google, but 10-30 years from now will other forces in the world have access? But the issue is less google than the massive changes tech is making to the world.
jodrellblank 17y ago
Safe from what? I can't answer that yet, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to ignore it. We are talking about the world's leading search company. There's no such thing as security through obscurity for them - they find needles in haystacks for a living. We're also talking long term - none of this stuff is going to be deleted, it's only ever going to grow in their collective. What if you do become someone famous or important in twenty years? Safe from misuse by Google? I think that's a risk you take with any third party provider But it's more of a risk from Google for several reasons - 1) they have so much of it, and 2) they're so good at searching and correlating, and 3) they're so big their data is a major drooling point for .gov legislation or hacker interests. Chances are most of us are just not special enough to be legitimate targets. Agreed. But if anyone can automate something they-think-is-benign-but-I-disagree on everyone's data all at once, Google can.
jules 17y ago
The problem with Google is that they have all the data in one place. If you use multiple services they all know a lot less about you. This makes it a lot harder for a government or a person in the company to combine the information into a full picture. I agree that the ISP is a huge problem too.

sid 17y ago

Hmmm, i sometimes get that same kind of feeling though i always tell myself, "no it should be ok", they are trusted, smart, respect my privacy my data and benevolant ... I store my emails using gmail, my code for my startup is backed up in my emails as a final restore point should something bad happen to my servers and source control, my design specs, tasks list are all stored within google document, my calculations and budgeting is done using googles spreadsheet. I still trust them and that is why i am still comfortable but to tell you the truth, the slightest glitch or security leak, or signs of evilism would really make me think twice. To add to this discussion a few things i have noticed (could be my paranoia, but who knows ..). A while back during uni there was this company called bullant (not sure if anyone ever heard of them). They had a decent product which consisted of a browser and a backend VM engine. There were a few features of the backend engine that i thought were really good and nice to develop in and generated really great apps that could be delivered over the internet. However i think the product didnt fly because it required users to change and use their own proprietry browser, the change was to drastic for users, it wasnt gradual enough as many users were already used to mozilla/netscape and ie. If i draw the comparisions sometimes i wonder if the introduction of chrome, the new V8 engine and all the hype of SaaS, whether this is a slow movement similar to what bullant all those years back tried to do. I wonder whether slowly and incrementally certain really great google apps will be just that tiny bit slower in ie or ff and slowly over time would certain features of the new great google app that everyone uses and loves stop working in those other browsers requiring us to all change to chrome to get the most out of it ? I sometims think whether the vision is that sometime in the future we all log into our linux/apple/windows computers and for 80% of the time fire up our chrome browsers go straight to our favourite google app saved in our favourites and no longer require 80% of the applications that we now have installed on our PC's ?