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I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history. You can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reconstruction_Era http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965 Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the US. It's another red herring, like terrorism.

lifeformed 13y ago
I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?
- djur 13y ago
  Not necessarily. If they don't drive or travel there's no reason for them to have state IDs, especially in rural areas.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  No, millions do not. And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Even where IDs can be gotten "free", the states with voter ID requirements are also the states likely to demand proof of identity and citizenship that are difficult or impossible for many citizens to meet.
  - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
    > And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Don't we all have to contend with those things? Do minorities and the poor get some sort of free pass on these sorts of obligations? EDIT: added the parent's parenthetical comment since they felt it was important. I don't want to come off as misquoting or quoting out of context.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      Clever, cutting off the parenthetical. Also clever attempting to derail. Actually, no, pretty pathetic attempt at derailing. Absolutely no one should be subject to these requirements, poor, minority, white, or rich. The fact that they disenfranchise some people is one of the reasons why.
      - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
        Pathetic attempt at derailing? Not really. You talked about the millions that don't have an ID. I don't dispute that. But then you talked about all the people that DO have an ID but have to content with keeping it up to date. As if that is some burden unique to minorities and the poor. That is what I dispute. No derailment needed from me. You took it there. Your parenthetical was just you're way to justify why they get a free pass on the things others don't. It was opinion that I didn't feel needed to be quoted. But sure if you want to include it, fine. I disagree with that. You don't need to get a reminder in the mail because the ID itself very clearly states when it needs to be renewed. Rich or poor, black or white... no free passes for being forgetful. Also, are you saying that nobody should have to keep their ID info up to date? Like no one should have to get their ID changed when they get married or move. And that no one should have to remember to get it renewed. I'm confused by that part.
        nknighthb 13y ago
        None of it should be a prerequisite for voting. I don't know what debate you think is happening here, but it's not the one you seem eager to have. This is about the reasons against requiring IDs for voting and only for voting. It has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you might have ID, nor is it an argument about what the requirements should be for having a valid ID. It is only about requiring ID for voting. That is all. This is why I say you're derailing: You're not talking about voter ID, you're just talking about ID in general.
        jack-r-abbit 13y ago
        Then why do so many people argue about how it is hard for minorities and the poor to get an ID? If that is not what this is about then it has no place in the argument against requiring an ID to vote. Your original comment was almost entirely about how hard it is for those people to get an ID. So again... no derailment from me. You brought it up.
- Jtsummers 13y ago
  They may not have photo IDs that satisfy the new rules. If you don't drive, then until recently you likely didn't have a gov't issued photo ID. Perhaps a school or work issued ID, but that isn't sufficient. You used to be able to present things like lease/electric bill to show residence + birth certificate to show citizenship.
- naner 13y ago
  Don't they already have IDs? No. For most people in the US if you don't have a car you don't have a govt ID. http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-law... those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don't have picture IDs.
  - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
    "Don't have one" and "can't get one" are two entirely different things. How many of them don't have one simply because they have not needed one before and will just go get one (like most people) now that they'll have a need for one? As a fairly poor college student without a car in a new state (Arizona), I managed to locate a bus schedule and a DMV and make my way to the DMV and get a state ID. And I did it without internet. I'm no genius. I have confidence that a lot of people can do it too. Side Note: In California, ID cards are $27. Or $8 if you meet income requirements from a public assistance program. Or free if you are 62 or older.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm California is not the US.
      - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
        I don't disagree that CA is not the US. But neither is Indiana. What is your point? That I was wrong about California's fees? Or that I was wrong about how easy it was to get an ID in California? Or that in Indiana it is harder and more expensive to get an ID than in California?
        nknighthb 13y ago
        My point is that you're not having the conversation any of the rest of us are. California is not a voter ID state, it is immaterial to the discussion. The states with voter ID laws are also the states that make it hard to get an ID.
Tomte 13y ago
But that whole argument depends on the status quo in the US: many poor don't have ID cards already. If you shift your view to the situation in other countries, it's easily answered: (almost) everyone has an ID card, so it cannot be used to disenfranchise minorities. Issue ID cards to everyone and your problem should go away.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  That's not going to happen, and many of the people who will make sure it doesn't happen are the same people who want voter ID laws in order to disenfranchise their political opponents. You're not just looking for a change in the status quo, you're looking for a fundamental realignment of American politics. Good luck with that.
  - Tomte 13y ago
    No, I'm pretty certain I won't see such a change, and since I'm not American, nor do I live in America, my interest in that is very limited.

lifeformed 13y ago

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

djur 13y ago
Not necessarily. If they don't drive or travel there's no reason for them to have state IDs, especially in rural areas.
nknighthb 13y ago
No, millions do not. And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Even where IDs can be gotten "free", the states with voter ID requirements are also the states likely to demand proof of identity and citizenship that are difficult or impossible for many citizens to meet.
- jack-r-abbit 13y ago
  > And even those that do often have to contend with issues like name changes from marriage, or just forgetting to renew them (you usually get reminders in the mail, but we're talking about people who may not even have a fixed address). Don't we all have to contend with those things? Do minorities and the poor get some sort of free pass on these sorts of obligations? EDIT: added the parent's parenthetical comment since they felt it was important. I don't want to come off as misquoting or quoting out of context.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    Clever, cutting off the parenthetical. Also clever attempting to derail. Actually, no, pretty pathetic attempt at derailing. Absolutely no one should be subject to these requirements, poor, minority, white, or rich. The fact that they disenfranchise some people is one of the reasons why.
    - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
      Pathetic attempt at derailing? Not really. You talked about the millions that don't have an ID. I don't dispute that. But then you talked about all the people that DO have an ID but have to content with keeping it up to date. As if that is some burden unique to minorities and the poor. That is what I dispute. No derailment needed from me. You took it there. Your parenthetical was just you're way to justify why they get a free pass on the things others don't. It was opinion that I didn't feel needed to be quoted. But sure if you want to include it, fine. I disagree with that. You don't need to get a reminder in the mail because the ID itself very clearly states when it needs to be renewed. Rich or poor, black or white... no free passes for being forgetful. Also, are you saying that nobody should have to keep their ID info up to date? Like no one should have to get their ID changed when they get married or move. And that no one should have to remember to get it renewed. I'm confused by that part.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        None of it should be a prerequisite for voting. I don't know what debate you think is happening here, but it's not the one you seem eager to have. This is about the reasons against requiring IDs for voting and only for voting. It has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you might have ID, nor is it an argument about what the requirements should be for having a valid ID. It is only about requiring ID for voting. That is all. This is why I say you're derailing: You're not talking about voter ID, you're just talking about ID in general.
        jack-r-abbit 13y ago
        Then why do so many people argue about how it is hard for minorities and the poor to get an ID? If that is not what this is about then it has no place in the argument against requiring an ID to vote. Your original comment was almost entirely about how hard it is for those people to get an ID. So again... no derailment from me. You brought it up.
Jtsummers 13y ago
They may not have photo IDs that satisfy the new rules. If you don't drive, then until recently you likely didn't have a gov't issued photo ID. Perhaps a school or work issued ID, but that isn't sufficient. You used to be able to present things like lease/electric bill to show residence + birth certificate to show citizenship.
naner 13y ago
Don't they already have IDs? No. For most people in the US if you don't have a car you don't have a govt ID. http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-laws-mean-some-wont-vote http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/146006217/why-new-photo-id-law... those least likely to have a government-issued photo ID fall into one of four categories: the elderly, minorities, the poor and young adults aged 18 to 24. The Brennan Center estimates that 18 percent of all seniors and 25 percent of African-Americans don't have picture IDs.
- jack-r-abbit 13y ago
  "Don't have one" and "can't get one" are two entirely different things. How many of them don't have one simply because they have not needed one before and will just go get one (like most people) now that they'll have a need for one? As a fairly poor college student without a car in a new state (Arizona), I managed to locate a bus schedule and a DMV and make my way to the DMV and get a state ID. And I did it without internet. I'm no genius. I have confidence that a lot of people can do it too. Side Note: In California, ID cards are $27. Or $8 if you meet income requirements from a public assistance program. Or free if you are 62 or older.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm http://www.in.gov/bmv/2766.htm California is not the US.
    - jack-r-abbit 13y ago
      I don't disagree that CA is not the US. But neither is Indiana. What is your point? That I was wrong about California's fees? Or that I was wrong about how easy it was to get an ID in California? Or that in Indiana it is harder and more expensive to get an ID than in California?
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        My point is that you're not having the conversation any of the rest of us are. California is not a voter ID state, it is immaterial to the discussion. The states with voter ID laws are also the states that make it hard to get an ID.

Tomte 13y ago

But that whole argument depends on the status quo in the US: many poor don't have ID cards already. If you shift your view to the situation in other countries, it's easily answered: (almost) everyone has an ID card, so it cannot be used to disenfranchise minorities. Issue ID cards to everyone and your problem should go away.

nknighthb 13y ago
That's not going to happen, and many of the people who will make sure it doesn't happen are the same people who want voter ID laws in order to disenfranchise their political opponents. You're not just looking for a change in the status quo, you're looking for a fundamental realignment of American politics. Good luck with that.
- Tomte 13y ago
  No, I'm pretty certain I won't see such a change, and since I'm not American, nor do I live in America, my interest in that is very limited.