5 ms·

It is undeniably the case that men are more...cautious about what they say and how they behave around women, particularly in the workplace. As a man, I'd have t

by kremlin 13y ago

It is undeniably the case that men are more...cautious about what they say and how they behave around women, particularly in the workplace. As a man, I'd have to say that such caution has precedent - you may be an exception, but (this incident being a great example) in my experience women are much more easily offended. And I could see how that could make things less enjoyable for women who aren't so up tight; women who are easy going and just want to get along with their co-workers and share a laugh and get good work done. It is unfortunate.

Perihelion 13y ago
You're exactly the sort of person I'm talking about. People like you are afraid to be comfortable in a work environment for fear that they'll be fired for saying or doing the wrong thing. Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist, I see no reason why you need to be walking on eggshells all the time at a place where you spend a large percentage of your day. It makes me sad that my presence would make you uncomfortable when I haven't said or done anything to you. While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Events like this are conditioning people to be afraid of these issues, not solve them. I just want to come to work, maybe draw stupid things on a white board, make cool shit, and go home. I'd really love it if my vagina wasn't the deciding factor in whether or not I was capable of STEM or whether or not I was capable of working around other human beings.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Yet this seems to imply that you place most of the blame on him... though it seems that you are both (potential) victims here.
  - Perihelion 13y ago
    I apologize if it came off this way. I actually allocate blame 50% to him and 50% to the people that do this sort of thing. This is a circular problem to me. Some people seem quick to be angry about things and they lash out at people. Then the people being lashed are like "These people are CRAZY. I'd better steer clear of them." The ones lashing out may have been on the receiving end of something *ist and read into things that people say/do. This issue seems to be feeding itself. What it comes down to is this: Everyone needs to stop judging everyone based on the actions of a few people who make great waves. The tech industry isn't the only place this could be beneficial, either. WRT calling him out on his behavior, all I was trying to say is that I disagree and wish he would consider changing his mentality going forward. I'm not mad at him for it, I'm sad that the actions of a few have caused him to think this. At the same time I was hoping to imply that I won't twist his arm because I see where he's coming from. No malice intended!
    - Dewie 13y ago
      Things like this can ruin lives (this according to you), yet you seem to write about this as if it is a simple attitude problem, in need of a "change in mentality" like being more reflected and aware of one's biases, and not (also) a matter of self preservation on his part.
      - Perihelion 13y ago
        No, I recognized that this is a self-preservation tactic and (thought) I implied I wished it weren't needed. Please read some of the other things I said -- I'm actually on the same side as him.
        Dewie 13y ago
        > No, I recognized that this is a self-preservation tactic and (thought) I implied I wished it weren't needed. This seems to contradict when you previously wrote that it is up to him, and him alone, to change his behavior, when here it seems to be actually a needed tactic bourn of forces outside of his control. Allocating 50% blame doesn't seem terribly sympathetic, either. But never mind, I have probably nitpicked more than my fair share for today.
- smtddr 13y ago
  >>Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist, I see no reason why you need to be walking on eggshells all the time at a place where you spend a large percentage of your day. It's been my experience that when men feel like they're walking on eggshells around women in the workplace it's because they're normally comfortable making sexists/rape jokes and/or have sexist beliefs. The feeling of eggshell walking is them trying to cover that up. I say this as a guy who has seen other male coworkers' behavior when there are no women around and how difficult it is for them to clean up their act when there is a lady in the room.
  - jsmthrowaway 13y ago
    Or, we're concerned about being misinterpreted and that misinterpretation being escalated instead of discussed with us so we can clear it up. But yeah, it's easier to just label us as sexists that like to joke about rape, right?
    - smtddr 13y ago
      That's just an excuse. Why are you more worried that a female coworker will misunderstand you than a male one?
      - jsmthrowaway 13y ago
        I'm not. I'm more worried that people, regardless of gender, will escalate said misunderstanding rather than talk to me about it, which is training I'm receiving from observing these folks on Twitter. I realize now my earlier comments made the unintended implication that I was painting solely women with this brush and that's my bad, and not what I meant. In context with your comment it looks that way but I lament this behavior regardless of gender or creed.
      - Dewie 13y ago
        I can't really imagine a man complaining about (percieved) sexism being taken very seriously. (But maybe we're talking more broadly than about sexism in particular.)
      - 13y ago
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  You can thank people like Adria Richards and the Ada Initiative for this. They taught us that you can get fired and become internet infamous for joking about dongles.
- onebaddude 13y ago
  >"Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist" Well, rapist is easy. But me and you may have very different ideas as what constitutes a "sexist". That's the crux of the problem; that's what causes men to walk on eggshells. >it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way Most people are not willing to risk their job to find out.
  - Perihelion 13y ago
    "Most people are not willing to risk their job to find out." And that's the part that makes me sad about all of this. People are all about "Consider the woman's feelings here!" but no one wants to consider how men feel about it because they're "privileged."
theorique 13y ago
Work on Wall Street. It's one of the last bastions of political incorrectness that you're likely to find in the USA. (I mean that in a complimentary way - people tend to take your words with a grain of salt, don't get butthurt unnecessarily, and if they are offended, they tell you off and then you put it behind you.)
- jacalata 13y ago
  Funny, that's also the industry where my sister had to literally campaign to get the office porn collection off the walls when she became the first female trader at her company in 2008. I think if this 'over-sensitivity' that men in tech say they are suffering from actually exists in a large percentage of developers, then it's a healthy backlash from such behaviour as Wall St, and eventually we'll find an equilibrium.
  - theorique 13y ago
    Porn on the walls is going a bit far, especially for 2008. I'm talking more about the tone of jokes (non-individually directed) and things like that. Stuff that you don't need to remember to hide when clients or the Board of Directors come to the office, and that doesn't turn up in an email log that will be reviewed later on by regulators. Stuff that you can switch off right away when you need to go in to "serious professional mode".

by kremlin 13y ago

Perihelion 13y ago

You're exactly the sort of person I'm talking about. People like you are afraid to be comfortable in a work environment for fear that they'll be fired for saying or doing the wrong thing. Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist, I see no reason why you need to be walking on eggshells all the time at a place where you spend a large percentage of your day. It makes me sad that my presence would make you uncomfortable when I haven't said or done anything to you. While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Events like this are conditioning people to be afraid of these issues, not solve them. I just want to come to work, maybe draw stupid things on a white board, make cool shit, and go home. I'd really love it if my vagina wasn't the deciding factor in whether or not I was capable of STEM or whether or not I was capable of working around other human beings.

Dewie 13y ago
> While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Yet this seems to imply that you place most of the blame on him... though it seems that you are both (potential) victims here.
- Perihelion 13y ago
  I apologize if it came off this way. I actually allocate blame 50% to him and 50% to the people that do this sort of thing. This is a circular problem to me. Some people seem quick to be angry about things and they lash out at people. Then the people being lashed are like "These people are CRAZY. I'd better steer clear of them." The ones lashing out may have been on the receiving end of something *ist and read into things that people say/do. This issue seems to be feeding itself. What it comes down to is this: Everyone needs to stop judging everyone based on the actions of a few people who make great waves. The tech industry isn't the only place this could be beneficial, either. WRT calling him out on his behavior, all I was trying to say is that I disagree and wish he would consider changing his mentality going forward. I'm not mad at him for it, I'm sad that the actions of a few have caused him to think this. At the same time I was hoping to imply that I won't twist his arm because I see where he's coming from. No malice intended!
  - Dewie 13y ago
    Things like this can ruin lives (this according to you), yet you seem to write about this as if it is a simple attitude problem, in need of a "change in mentality" like being more reflected and aware of one's biases, and not (also) a matter of self preservation on his part.
    - Perihelion 13y ago
      No, I recognized that this is a self-preservation tactic and (thought) I implied I wished it weren't needed. Please read some of the other things I said -- I'm actually on the same side as him.
      - Dewie 13y ago
        > No, I recognized that this is a self-preservation tactic and (thought) I implied I wished it weren't needed. This seems to contradict when you previously wrote that it is up to him, and him alone, to change his behavior, when here it seems to be actually a needed tactic bourn of forces outside of his control. Allocating 50% blame doesn't seem terribly sympathetic, either. But never mind, I have probably nitpicked more than my fair share for today.
smtddr 13y ago
>>Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist, I see no reason why you need to be walking on eggshells all the time at a place where you spend a large percentage of your day. It's been my experience that when men feel like they're walking on eggshells around women in the workplace it's because they're normally comfortable making sexists/rape jokes and/or have sexist beliefs. The feeling of eggshell walking is them trying to cover that up. I say this as a guy who has seen other male coworkers' behavior when there are no women around and how difficult it is for them to clean up their act when there is a lady in the room.
- jsmthrowaway 13y ago
  Or, we're concerned about being misinterpreted and that misinterpretation being escalated instead of discussed with us so we can clear it up. But yeah, it's easier to just label us as sexists that like to joke about rape, right?
  - smtddr 13y ago
    That's just an excuse. Why are you more worried that a female coworker will misunderstand you than a male one?
    - jsmthrowaway 13y ago
      I'm not. I'm more worried that people, regardless of gender, will escalate said misunderstanding rather than talk to me about it, which is training I'm receiving from observing these folks on Twitter. I realize now my earlier comments made the unintended implication that I was painting solely women with this brush and that's my bad, and not what I meant. In context with your comment it looks that way but I lament this behavior regardless of gender or creed.
    - Dewie 13y ago
      I can't really imagine a man complaining about (percieved) sexism being taken very seriously. (But maybe we're talking more broadly than about sexism in particular.)
    - 13y ago
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
You can thank people like Adria Richards and the Ada Initiative for this. They taught us that you can get fired and become internet infamous for joking about dongles.
onebaddude 13y ago
>"Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist" Well, rapist is easy. But me and you may have very different ideas as what constitutes a "sexist". That's the crux of the problem; that's what causes men to walk on eggshells. >it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way Most people are not willing to risk their job to find out.
- Perihelion 13y ago
  "Most people are not willing to risk their job to find out." And that's the part that makes me sad about all of this. People are all about "Consider the woman's feelings here!" but no one wants to consider how men feel about it because they're "privileged."

theorique 13y ago

Work on Wall Street. It's one of the last bastions of political incorrectness that you're likely to find in the USA. (I mean that in a complimentary way - people tend to take your words with a grain of salt, don't get butthurt unnecessarily, and if they are offended, they tell you off and then you put it behind you.)

jacalata 13y ago
Funny, that's also the industry where my sister had to literally campaign to get the office porn collection off the walls when she became the first female trader at her company in 2008. I think if this 'over-sensitivity' that men in tech say they are suffering from actually exists in a large percentage of developers, then it's a healthy backlash from such behaviour as Wall St, and eventually we'll find an equilibrium.
- theorique 13y ago
  Porn on the walls is going a bit far, especially for 2008. I'm talking more about the tone of jokes (non-individually directed) and things like that. Stuff that you don't need to remember to hide when clients or the Board of Directors come to the office, and that doesn't turn up in an email log that will be reviewed later on by regulators. Stuff that you can switch off right away when you need to go in to "serious professional mode".