9 ms·

As a woman in this industry that has been programming since I was ~8, I wasn't offended in the slightest. In my opinion he said there was a problem that he'd ha

As a woman in this industry that has been programming since I was ~8, I wasn't offended in the slightest. In my opinion he said there was a problem that he'd have to think about before offering a solution. "It's easy to be offended by things. It's also obnoxious and often irresponsible." Personally, this sort of behavior affects my career. When I first started at my current job people were afraid to speak to me because they expected me to get offended at the slightest thing. I want people to treat me equally, but I don't want people to be afraid to come to work because I might sue them for looking at me. That's not what I'm about at all but unfortunately I'm pre-judged to lash out at people when I see something I don't like. I want everyone to come to work and get fair treatment/compensation/etc. but I feel that incidents like this set all of us back. The discrimination is different now. People don't see me as incapable of STEM, they see me as incapable of working with other people. It sucks. A lot.

kremlin 13y ago
It is undeniably the case that men are more...cautious about what they say and how they behave around women, particularly in the workplace. As a man, I'd have to say that such caution has precedent - you may be an exception, but (this incident being a great example) in my experience women are much more easily offended. And I could see how that could make things less enjoyable for women who aren't so up tight; women who are easy going and just want to get along with their co-workers and share a laugh and get good work done. It is unfortunate.
- Perihelion 13y ago
  You're exactly the sort of person I'm talking about. People like you are afraid to be comfortable in a work environment for fear that they'll be fired for saying or doing the wrong thing. Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist, I see no reason why you need to be walking on eggshells all the time at a place where you spend a large percentage of your day. It makes me sad that my presence would make you uncomfortable when I haven't said or done anything to you. While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Events like this are conditioning people to be afraid of these issues, not solve them. I just want to come to work, maybe draw stupid things on a white board, make cool shit, and go home. I'd really love it if my vagina wasn't the deciding factor in whether or not I was capable of STEM or whether or not I was capable of working around other human beings.
  - Dewie 13y ago
    > While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Yet this seems to imply that you place most of the blame on him... though it seems that you are both (potential) victims here.
    - Perihelion 13y ago
      I apologize if it came off this way. I actually allocate blame 50% to him and 50% to the people that do this sort of thing. This is a circular problem to me. Some people seem quick to be angry about things and they lash out at people. Then the people being lashed are like "These people are CRAZY. I'd better steer clear of them." The ones lashing out may have been on the receiving end of something *ist and read into things that people say/do. This issue seems to be feeding itself. What it comes down to is this: Everyone needs to stop judging everyone based on the actions of a few people who make great waves. The tech industry isn't the only place this could be beneficial, either. WRT calling him out on his behavior, all I was trying to say is that I disagree and wish he would consider changing his mentality going forward. I'm not mad at him for it, I'm sad that the actions of a few have caused him to think this. At the same time I was hoping to imply that I won't twist his arm because I see where he's coming from. No malice intended!
      - Dewie 13y ago
        Things like this can ruin lives (this according to you), yet you seem to write about this as if it is a simple attitude problem, in need of a "change in mentality" like being more reflected and aware of one's biases, and not (also) a matter of self preservation on his part.
        Perihelion 13y ago
        No, I recognized that this is a self-preservation tactic and (thought) I implied I wished it weren't needed. Please read some of the other things I said -- I'm actually on the same side as him.
- theorique 13y ago
  Work on Wall Street. It's one of the last bastions of political incorrectness that you're likely to find in the USA. (I mean that in a complimentary way - people tend to take your words with a grain of salt, don't get butthurt unnecessarily, and if they are offended, they tell you off and then you put it behind you.)
  - jacalata 13y ago
    Funny, that's also the industry where my sister had to literally campaign to get the office porn collection off the walls when she became the first female trader at her company in 2008. I think if this 'over-sensitivity' that men in tech say they are suffering from actually exists in a large percentage of developers, then it's a healthy backlash from such behaviour as Wall St, and eventually we'll find an equilibrium.
    - theorique 13y ago
      Porn on the walls is going a bit far, especially for 2008. I'm talking more about the tone of jokes (non-individually directed) and things like that. Stuff that you don't need to remember to hide when clients or the Board of Directors come to the office, and that doesn't turn up in an email log that will be reviewed later on by regulators. Stuff that you can switch off right away when you need to go in to "serious professional mode".

kremlin 13y ago

It is undeniably the case that men are more...cautious about what they say and how they behave around women, particularly in the workplace. As a man, I'd have to say that such caution has precedent - you may be an exception, but (this incident being a great example) in my experience women are much more easily offended. And I could see how that could make things less enjoyable for women who aren't so up tight; women who are easy going and just want to get along with their co-workers and share a laugh and get good work done. It is unfortunate.

Perihelion 13y ago
You're exactly the sort of person I'm talking about. People like you are afraid to be comfortable in a work environment for fear that they'll be fired for saying or doing the wrong thing. Provided you aren't a sexist/rapist, I see no reason why you need to be walking on eggshells all the time at a place where you spend a large percentage of your day. It makes me sad that my presence would make you uncomfortable when I haven't said or done anything to you. While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Events like this are conditioning people to be afraid of these issues, not solve them. I just want to come to work, maybe draw stupid things on a white board, make cool shit, and go home. I'd really love it if my vagina wasn't the deciding factor in whether or not I was capable of STEM or whether or not I was capable of working around other human beings.
- Dewie 13y ago
  > While you and you alone have the power to change your behavior (and it would be awesome if you gave women the benefit of the doubt because we're not all this way...promise), I really can't place 100% of the blame on you either. Yet this seems to imply that you place most of the blame on him... though it seems that you are both (potential) victims here.
  - Perihelion 13y ago
    I apologize if it came off this way. I actually allocate blame 50% to him and 50% to the people that do this sort of thing. This is a circular problem to me. Some people seem quick to be angry about things and they lash out at people. Then the people being lashed are like "These people are CRAZY. I'd better steer clear of them." The ones lashing out may have been on the receiving end of something *ist and read into things that people say/do. This issue seems to be feeding itself. What it comes down to is this: Everyone needs to stop judging everyone based on the actions of a few people who make great waves. The tech industry isn't the only place this could be beneficial, either. WRT calling him out on his behavior, all I was trying to say is that I disagree and wish he would consider changing his mentality going forward. I'm not mad at him for it, I'm sad that the actions of a few have caused him to think this. At the same time I was hoping to imply that I won't twist his arm because I see where he's coming from. No malice intended!
    - Dewie 13y ago
      Things like this can ruin lives (this according to you), yet you seem to write about this as if it is a simple attitude problem, in need of a "change in mentality" like being more reflected and aware of one's biases, and not (also) a matter of self preservation on his part.
      - Perihelion 13y ago
        No, I recognized that this is a self-preservation tactic and (thought) I implied I wished it weren't needed. Please read some of the other things I said -- I'm actually on the same side as him.
theorique 13y ago
Work on Wall Street. It's one of the last bastions of political incorrectness that you're likely to find in the USA. (I mean that in a complimentary way - people tend to take your words with a grain of salt, don't get butthurt unnecessarily, and if they are offended, they tell you off and then you put it behind you.)
- jacalata 13y ago
  Funny, that's also the industry where my sister had to literally campaign to get the office porn collection off the walls when she became the first female trader at her company in 2008. I think if this 'over-sensitivity' that men in tech say they are suffering from actually exists in a large percentage of developers, then it's a healthy backlash from such behaviour as Wall St, and eventually we'll find an equilibrium.
  - theorique 13y ago
    Porn on the walls is going a bit far, especially for 2008. I'm talking more about the tone of jokes (non-individually directed) and things like that. Stuff that you don't need to remember to hide when clients or the Board of Directors come to the office, and that doesn't turn up in an email log that will be reviewed later on by regulators. Stuff that you can switch off right away when you need to go in to "serious professional mode".