4 ms·

I'm not sure I want to work in an industry where some offhanded quip can lead to the kind witchhunt and character assassination like we saw over the last few da

by freyrs3 13y ago

I'm not sure I want to work in an industry where some offhanded quip can lead to the kind witchhunt and character assassination like we saw over the last few days. Paul Graham may have some views that seem controversial to some people, but don't we all? I really blame the tabloidization of the tech press and the "twitter controversy of the day" bandwagon effect for these kind of incidents.

crassus 13y ago
I wish him luck on his follow-up essay about female founders. What's valuable about a PG essay is 1) his careful analysis and 2) generalization from his wealth of experience. But if he does (2) at all, he's going to piss off Social Justice Warriors. Writing nowadays is like playing football in a minefield.
klaut 13y ago
This. A million times this.
- fat0wl 13y ago
  plus -999,999 times this
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
It's not really a problem with the tech industry, so much as it is in general with the mainstream media and consumer society. People have loved sensational stories for centuries. The only difference is the persistent toxicity of extreme social justice and how they've invaded tech, for some reason. Perhaps because it's a big and booming field, but I've always found it odd how a lot of feminists decry geek culture as outcasts, losers and misogynists, yet simultaneously want desperately to be a part of it. Ultimately, I think you'll do yourself good with a social media detox.
jsmthrowaway 13y ago
There are people who wake up in the morning, just like you or me, and instead of doing something productive with their time begin the day's hunt for a topic to be offended about. These are people that spend every day searching for something that offends them so that they can bitch to their followers about it and feel like they are producing some real change in the world. Think on par with "Fox News commentary," except militant feminism instead of hyperconservative. Facts just get in the way of the rage train. Can't have those. You are getting a glimpse of those people. Spend your days looking to be offended and, my God, it occasionally happens and you get your chance to rabble! Welcome to social justice warriors. I used to think I wanted out of the industry too. Now I just keep a list and act accordingly when I am asked to hire. I've also learned to spot the signs, including certain phrases, retweeting of certain people consistently, linking to the Geek Feminism wiki because it's a wiki and it has facts, and so forth. A good example of a red flag tweet: https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/417775128831741952 https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/417775128831741952
- diydsp 13y ago
  You are so correct, except that some of them don't even hunt for something to be offended about, they simply log onto their favorite websites and take other people's word at what to be offended about! "Anyone can become angry -- that is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way -- this is not easy."- Aristotle
- gfodor 13y ago
  the SJW thing is in the most classic sense a meme. it's spread into tech and it's really disappointing. i don't really get it. the only explanation I have is that it offers people the feeling that they are somehow smarter than the rest of the sheep for realizing the effects of "the patriarchy" and "privilege". They have a more enlightened perspective and one which has easy to use go-to rhetorical defenses when called into question. These views also have the attribute of making the person feel like they are by definition always on the morally right side of any argument, since they are de facto always supportive of the victim. (Since they define the victim.) The problem is that these things are set up to be unfalsifiable, and claiming that perhaps situation A or B was not in fact influenced by some hidden, systemic, nefarious thing like the patriarchy sets you up to be labeled at best ignorant and at worst sexist/racist/intolerant/etc. Simple explanations for cause and effect events in society are by definition suspect, if they cannot be tied to some larger scale societal struggle and narrative. It's basically a intellectual framework that has built up immunity from criticism via built-in argumentative tricks, similar to various forms of pseudo-science. This is not to say there aren't plenty of places where discrimination happens and needs to be confronted. But it is not always the answer, and it is certainly not always the dominant factor in our day to day lives. Folks like the one you posted above seem to see everything in life through this lens, and it colors their opinions on everything, from the important to the mundane.
  - jsmthrowaway 13y ago
    > sets you up to be labeled at best ignorant and at worst sexist/racist/intolerant/etc. Indeed. Here's a reply to my comment[1] from yesterday: https://twitter.com/ashedryden/status/417475900850974720 https://twitter.com/ashedryden/status/417475900850974720 There is no racism, misogyny, or meritocracy worship anywhere in my comment. To be clear, after that comment, a person who has never met me felt the appropriate conclusion was "that guy hates people who aren't white, hates women, and worships meritocracy." Which, for anybody that knows me, is an asinine thing to say. People from that group like to trot out horrible things (like "this guy came up to me at a conference and asked to fuck me," which is fucking awful, and I hope it was dealt with appropriately), then condemn a huge swath of people with that experience, then put people that disagree with them in the same bucket and accuse them of supporting horrible behavior. Because disagreeing with a method of discourse is literally the same as sexual assault, right? I'm past being afraid of these people. The last 24 hours have helped a great deal. I e-mailed several people who said awful things and they all clammed up real fast (or asked me to take the conversation back to public forums, so that they'd have help), including one person who asked me to e-mail her. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6981307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6981307
Perihelion 13y ago
Amen. I stated earlier that because of this behavior people now treat me (a female) as if I'm just looking to fight. It's disgusting and actively pushing me out of the industry. Sexist men are not my enemy anymore :/
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
Keep in mind, the industry is really bigger than this. There are many tech people for which this story is not even on the radar.

by freyrs3 13y ago

crassus 13y ago

I wish him luck on his follow-up essay about female founders. What's valuable about a PG essay is 1) his careful analysis and 2) generalization from his wealth of experience. But if he does (2) at all, he's going to piss off Social Justice Warriors. Writing nowadays is like playing football in a minefield.

klaut 13y ago

This. A million times this.

fat0wl 13y ago
plus -999,999 times this

vezzy-fnord 13y ago

It's not really a problem with the tech industry, so much as it is in general with the mainstream media and consumer society. People have loved sensational stories for centuries. The only difference is the persistent toxicity of extreme social justice and how they've invaded tech, for some reason. Perhaps because it's a big and booming field, but I've always found it odd how a lot of feminists decry geek culture as outcasts, losers and misogynists, yet simultaneously want desperately to be a part of it. Ultimately, I think you'll do yourself good with a social media detox.

jsmthrowaway 13y ago

There are people who wake up in the morning, just like you or me, and instead of doing something productive with their time begin the day's hunt for a topic to be offended about. These are people that spend every day searching for something that offends them so that they can bitch to their followers about it and feel like they are producing some real change in the world. Think on par with "Fox News commentary," except militant feminism instead of hyperconservative. Facts just get in the way of the rage train. Can't have those. You are getting a glimpse of those people. Spend your days looking to be offended and, my God, it occasionally happens and you get your chance to rabble! Welcome to social justice warriors. I used to think I wanted out of the industry too. Now I just keep a list and act accordingly when I am asked to hire. I've also learned to spot the signs, including certain phrases, retweeting of certain people consistently, linking to the Geek Feminism wiki because it's a wiki and it has facts, and so forth. A good example of a red flag tweet: https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/417775128831741952 https://twitter.com/jacobian/status/417775128831741952

diydsp 13y ago
You are so correct, except that some of them don't even hunt for something to be offended about, they simply log onto their favorite websites and take other people's word at what to be offended about! "Anyone can become angry -- that is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right way -- this is not easy."- Aristotle
gfodor 13y ago
the SJW thing is in the most classic sense a meme. it's spread into tech and it's really disappointing. i don't really get it. the only explanation I have is that it offers people the feeling that they are somehow smarter than the rest of the sheep for realizing the effects of "the patriarchy" and "privilege". They have a more enlightened perspective and one which has easy to use go-to rhetorical defenses when called into question. These views also have the attribute of making the person feel like they are by definition always on the morally right side of any argument, since they are de facto always supportive of the victim. (Since they define the victim.) The problem is that these things are set up to be unfalsifiable, and claiming that perhaps situation A or B was not in fact influenced by some hidden, systemic, nefarious thing like the patriarchy sets you up to be labeled at best ignorant and at worst sexist/racist/intolerant/etc. Simple explanations for cause and effect events in society are by definition suspect, if they cannot be tied to some larger scale societal struggle and narrative. It's basically a intellectual framework that has built up immunity from criticism via built-in argumentative tricks, similar to various forms of pseudo-science. This is not to say there aren't plenty of places where discrimination happens and needs to be confronted. But it is not always the answer, and it is certainly not always the dominant factor in our day to day lives. Folks like the one you posted above seem to see everything in life through this lens, and it colors their opinions on everything, from the important to the mundane.
- jsmthrowaway 13y ago
  > sets you up to be labeled at best ignorant and at worst sexist/racist/intolerant/etc. Indeed. Here's a reply to my comment[1] from yesterday: https://twitter.com/ashedryden/status/417475900850974720 https://twitter.com/ashedryden/status/417475900850974720 There is no racism, misogyny, or meritocracy worship anywhere in my comment. To be clear, after that comment, a person who has never met me felt the appropriate conclusion was "that guy hates people who aren't white, hates women, and worships meritocracy." Which, for anybody that knows me, is an asinine thing to say. People from that group like to trot out horrible things (like "this guy came up to me at a conference and asked to fuck me," which is fucking awful, and I hope it was dealt with appropriately), then condemn a huge swath of people with that experience, then put people that disagree with them in the same bucket and accuse them of supporting horrible behavior. Because disagreeing with a method of discourse is literally the same as sexual assault, right? I'm past being afraid of these people. The last 24 hours have helped a great deal. I e-mailed several people who said awful things and they all clammed up real fast (or asked me to take the conversation back to public forums, so that they'd have help), including one person who asked me to e-mail her. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6981307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6981307

Perihelion 13y ago

Amen. I stated earlier that because of this behavior people now treat me (a female) as if I'm just looking to fight. It's disgusting and actively pushing me out of the industry. Sexist men are not my enemy anymore :/

dinkumthinkum 13y ago

Keep in mind, the industry is really bigger than this. There are many tech people for which this story is not even on the radar.