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>It's awfully hard to discern a point in this rambling piece. The point is: its expensive being poor. The rich receive so many more benefits and rewards in th

>It's awfully hard to discern a point in this rambling piece. The point is: its expensive being poor. The rich receive so many more benefits and rewards in their world, simply for the fact that they 'are rich' and thus 'have more potential' than the poor. Until we realize that the poor are kept there by the wealthy, we'll never solve income-inequality in the world. Without such 'rich bubbles' existing in our society, there is no hope for us all to rise.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
Can you explain the mechanism by which the rich keep the poor there? (If the answer is simply "insufficient wealth redistribution", what is the right amount of wealth redistribution? I.e., at what amount of redistribution do we declare that the wealthy have done enough, and the problem must lie not with them?)
- fit2rule 13y ago
  The rich get a lot of things for free that most people would have to pay large amounts of money for .. such as free glasses of sekt while waiting for the plane, or gift bags when you enter the host bar, and so on. By just accepting this as a matter of 'life as a rich person', the rich do indeed steal from the poor - those bags had to get paid somehow, the sekt doesn't just bottle itself. I recently attended a large art opening in a very wealthy city. The party was full of millionaires and billionaires. Everywhere: free food, free drinks, free everything. I felt more connection with the waiters and servers than I did with any of the rich people enjoying the fruits of all the servers work .. What I think has to happen is that the rich have to realize that their privilege has to be shared, and they simply have to share it as much as they can. This dividing line between 'me and them' has to disappear. I don't think that wealth-redistribution by the government is any sort of solution; what has to happen is that society has to enlighten itself to the point where these greedy, self-indulgent people do not get created by societys' institutions. I tipped the waiters, anyway. Nobody else in the room did.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    An economy ticket costs from London to Mumbai costs $485, whereas the first class ticket costs $2348. The rich person is paying for their own sekt and gift bags. Or are you somehow implying that the poor pay for the perks associated to the first class ticket? This is like saying the poor rob the rich because they get free ketchup at Burger King.
- runako 13y ago
  One example, in the US: poor people get crappy education. The more our economy shifts to a knowledge-based economy, the more effective this is at keeping poor people poor. Another example: access to legal services (in the US) is essentially required for fair treatment under the law. Poor people cannot afford legal services, and so will generally not get fair treatment under the law. So a mistake/misunderstanding/relatively minor infraction that would be a mere hassle for a richer person can be life-ruining for a poorer person. In the US, we've gone so far as to apply wildly different penalties to "poor people's drugs" and "rich people's drugs" (obviously stereotypes, but the stereotypes have some basis in fact and are why the laws were written that way). Poor neighborhoods are more likely to experience elevated crime levels. In the US, this means they are often militarized. This makes everyone that lives in them more at risk for life-ruining run-ins with the law. The people of NYC have decided that it's fair for non-white juveniles to be subject to stopping & frisking anytime, for no cause. This is a tax for which no benefit is derived by the payers. There are tons of examples like these that have nothing to do with redistribution. If you read the papers, you'll see examples every day.
  - AutoCorrect 13y ago
    Here's a newsflash for ya: DON'T BREAK THE LAW!!! If they weren't breaking they law there would be no need to send them to jail. I grew up around a bunch of potheads and saw by their example that I never wanted to be involved with drugs. Instead of spending my time getting drunk and high I spent my time in the library reading. I grew up in a trailer park, and now live in a middle-class suburb. Because I was interested in video games, I learned about computers. Poor people are held down by the chains of their own bad habits, not by rich people.
    - sneak 13y ago
      There are so many laws in the US that everyone there is committing several felonies a day. It's the poor and minorities the cops choose to scrutinize and enforce against most. Few times have I seen such obliviousness to white middle-class privilege on HN.
      - 13y ago
- onebaddude 13y ago
  >"Can you explain the mechanism by which the rich keep the poor there?" The political system. Same as it's been for thousands of years.
  - stirno 13y ago
    The poor also participate in the US political system and help maintain the regrettable status quo.
    - simbolit 13y ago
      When was the last time you saw a lobbyist for the poor on Capitol Hill? And how big a bag of cash did they have with them?
    - HarryHirsch 13y ago
      Newsflash: politics != going to the polls Being a politician is expensive; fundraising, free time and access is required to rise through the ranks and get stuff done. Also, especially in the US, there is this issue of campaign donations. Giving to someone's campaign is also participating in politics. And then there is the issue of becoming part of the party apparatus. At my present university, a state university in the Northeast US both College Republicans and Democrats are near invisible. In contrast, at my previous uni, a member of the Ivy League in New England, both parties managed to invite all sorts of established party members, and they were recruiting for campaigning. Think internships. Yet here on HN we see the benefits of state universities extolled. They may be cheap, but that's because one of the things you go to college for is to build a network of peers and established figures in your chosen field.
- djrobstep 13y ago
  Highly unequal property rights enforcement by the state. There is a great deal of property in the world. Rich people use the state to control a vast amount of it for themselves. They use that control to deny the poor access to most of that property, coerce the poor into doing their bidding, and accumulate even more control of that property.
gaius 13y ago
Imagine that you are stranded on a desert island and the only source of food is coconuts, for which you must climb trees. You are bad at climbing trees and often go hungry. Is this unfair? Who is being unfair to you?
- jljljl 13y ago
  Let's expand this to a second scenario: Imagine you are stranded on a desert island with one other person and the only source of food is coconuts for which you must climb trees. You are worse at climbing trees than your fellow cast away. He climbs the trees before you, takes most of the coconuts, and hoards them. When you ask him for some coconuts he says you should have practiced climbing more as a child. Is this unfair? Who is being unfair to you?
  - sejje 13y ago
    No, it's not unfair. He's being a dick, maybe, if there's enough coconuts for both of you with no risk of running out, or if it's very easy and risk-free for him to obtain them, etc, but this is ultimately fair imo. His logic is stupid at best, of course. You can practice climbing trees as an adult, and you'll probably progress significantly faster than you would as a child. His response should be "No, I collected these myself, and you can collect yours yourself."
    - mercer 13y ago
      I suppose this all hinges on how you define 'fair'. As long as there is no agreement on that, it's hard to discuss this issue in a meaningful way. Fair, from my perspective, is taking care of others, especially those weaker than me. I happen to have been born in a nurturing environment, with above-average intelligence, and lots of valuable experiences that inform my decisions. While I do work hard, it sometimes shocks me how many things 'came free' for me. From my perspective, it is not wrong that I happen to have won the lottery. It is also not wrong that others have not, and have less than me. But I would say it is unfair for me to not share my advantage with others, and to try to increase happiness of those around me through this. That said, I respect that your view of fairness is different. I just don't like it, and choose to be different, and I'll fight for my version of fair...

yummyfajitas 13y ago

Can you explain the mechanism by which the rich keep the poor there? (If the answer is simply "insufficient wealth redistribution", what is the right amount of wealth redistribution? I.e., at what amount of redistribution do we declare that the wealthy have done enough, and the problem must lie not with them?)

fit2rule 13y ago
The rich get a lot of things for free that most people would have to pay large amounts of money for .. such as free glasses of sekt while waiting for the plane, or gift bags when you enter the host bar, and so on. By just accepting this as a matter of 'life as a rich person', the rich do indeed steal from the poor - those bags had to get paid somehow, the sekt doesn't just bottle itself. I recently attended a large art opening in a very wealthy city. The party was full of millionaires and billionaires. Everywhere: free food, free drinks, free everything. I felt more connection with the waiters and servers than I did with any of the rich people enjoying the fruits of all the servers work .. What I think has to happen is that the rich have to realize that their privilege has to be shared, and they simply have to share it as much as they can. This dividing line between 'me and them' has to disappear. I don't think that wealth-redistribution by the government is any sort of solution; what has to happen is that society has to enlighten itself to the point where these greedy, self-indulgent people do not get created by societys' institutions. I tipped the waiters, anyway. Nobody else in the room did.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  An economy ticket costs from London to Mumbai costs $485, whereas the first class ticket costs $2348. The rich person is paying for their own sekt and gift bags. Or are you somehow implying that the poor pay for the perks associated to the first class ticket? This is like saying the poor rob the rich because they get free ketchup at Burger King.
runako 13y ago
One example, in the US: poor people get crappy education. The more our economy shifts to a knowledge-based economy, the more effective this is at keeping poor people poor. Another example: access to legal services (in the US) is essentially required for fair treatment under the law. Poor people cannot afford legal services, and so will generally not get fair treatment under the law. So a mistake/misunderstanding/relatively minor infraction that would be a mere hassle for a richer person can be life-ruining for a poorer person. In the US, we've gone so far as to apply wildly different penalties to "poor people's drugs" and "rich people's drugs" (obviously stereotypes, but the stereotypes have some basis in fact and are why the laws were written that way). Poor neighborhoods are more likely to experience elevated crime levels. In the US, this means they are often militarized. This makes everyone that lives in them more at risk for life-ruining run-ins with the law. The people of NYC have decided that it's fair for non-white juveniles to be subject to stopping & frisking anytime, for no cause. This is a tax for which no benefit is derived by the payers. There are tons of examples like these that have nothing to do with redistribution. If you read the papers, you'll see examples every day.
- AutoCorrect 13y ago
  Here's a newsflash for ya: DON'T BREAK THE LAW!!! If they weren't breaking they law there would be no need to send them to jail. I grew up around a bunch of potheads and saw by their example that I never wanted to be involved with drugs. Instead of spending my time getting drunk and high I spent my time in the library reading. I grew up in a trailer park, and now live in a middle-class suburb. Because I was interested in video games, I learned about computers. Poor people are held down by the chains of their own bad habits, not by rich people.
  - sneak 13y ago
    There are so many laws in the US that everyone there is committing several felonies a day. It's the poor and minorities the cops choose to scrutinize and enforce against most. Few times have I seen such obliviousness to white middle-class privilege on HN.
    - 13y ago
onebaddude 13y ago
>"Can you explain the mechanism by which the rich keep the poor there?" The political system. Same as it's been for thousands of years.
- stirno 13y ago
  The poor also participate in the US political system and help maintain the regrettable status quo.
  - simbolit 13y ago
    When was the last time you saw a lobbyist for the poor on Capitol Hill? And how big a bag of cash did they have with them?
  - HarryHirsch 13y ago
    Newsflash: politics != going to the polls Being a politician is expensive; fundraising, free time and access is required to rise through the ranks and get stuff done. Also, especially in the US, there is this issue of campaign donations. Giving to someone's campaign is also participating in politics. And then there is the issue of becoming part of the party apparatus. At my present university, a state university in the Northeast US both College Republicans and Democrats are near invisible. In contrast, at my previous uni, a member of the Ivy League in New England, both parties managed to invite all sorts of established party members, and they were recruiting for campaigning. Think internships. Yet here on HN we see the benefits of state universities extolled. They may be cheap, but that's because one of the things you go to college for is to build a network of peers and established figures in your chosen field.
djrobstep 13y ago
Highly unequal property rights enforcement by the state. There is a great deal of property in the world. Rich people use the state to control a vast amount of it for themselves. They use that control to deny the poor access to most of that property, coerce the poor into doing their bidding, and accumulate even more control of that property.

gaius 13y ago

Imagine that you are stranded on a desert island and the only source of food is coconuts, for which you must climb trees. You are bad at climbing trees and often go hungry. Is this unfair? Who is being unfair to you?

jljljl 13y ago
Let's expand this to a second scenario: Imagine you are stranded on a desert island with one other person and the only source of food is coconuts for which you must climb trees. You are worse at climbing trees than your fellow cast away. He climbs the trees before you, takes most of the coconuts, and hoards them. When you ask him for some coconuts he says you should have practiced climbing more as a child. Is this unfair? Who is being unfair to you?
- sejje 13y ago
  No, it's not unfair. He's being a dick, maybe, if there's enough coconuts for both of you with no risk of running out, or if it's very easy and risk-free for him to obtain them, etc, but this is ultimately fair imo. His logic is stupid at best, of course. You can practice climbing trees as an adult, and you'll probably progress significantly faster than you would as a child. His response should be "No, I collected these myself, and you can collect yours yourself."
  - mercer 13y ago
    I suppose this all hinges on how you define 'fair'. As long as there is no agreement on that, it's hard to discuss this issue in a meaningful way. Fair, from my perspective, is taking care of others, especially those weaker than me. I happen to have been born in a nurturing environment, with above-average intelligence, and lots of valuable experiences that inform my decisions. While I do work hard, it sometimes shocks me how many things 'came free' for me. From my perspective, it is not wrong that I happen to have won the lottery. It is also not wrong that others have not, and have less than me. But I would say it is unfair for me to not share my advantage with others, and to try to increase happiness of those around me through this. That said, I respect that your view of fairness is different. I just don't like it, and choose to be different, and I'll fight for my version of fair...