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Your argument is that the free market will favor ISPs that support/don't oppose net-neutrality. I argue that most people won't care about their "choice" (air q

Your argument is that the free market will favor ISPs that support/don't oppose net-neutrality. I argue that most people won't care about their "choice" (air quotes, because most people can't pick from more than 2 ISPs) of ISP until it's too late. Already you have ISPs throttling access to streaming video sites (netflix, youtube, twitch) with little to no REAL blowback. With the barriers to entry as high as they are, there's no way for a competitor to succeed in the market solely on the basis of being net-neutral. Google Fiber, in markets where it's available, has led to competitors reducing prices and offering better service. However, there's no word of change regarding net neutrality.

dippyskoodlez 13y ago
>Google Fiber, in markets where it's available, has led to competitors reducing prices and offering better service. However, there's no word of change regarding net neutrality. As a KC resident, TWC has not yet reduced my internet costs or increased speeds.
- hayksaakian 13y ago
  I'll say my only knowledge of this was anecdotal (from others) I can say first hand, that if you call your ISP and say "I'm switching to X service at $Y for Zmbps" you can get your bill reduced.
  - dippyskoodlez 13y ago
    The only other option is U-verse which is more expensive for the same speed or they don't even offer the same speed. Calling the ISP and threatening them only works if you can find someone with the power to do so(and hope they don't note your account for trying it again, later..), and assumes they hold true to their word on your next bill. I was primarily refuting your "causes isps to lower their prices" because Google fiber has done NOTHING for TWC's marketing. It's still the same terrible prices.
    - hayksaakian 13y ago
      (this is getting a little off topic) The way customer service works (again in my experience) is that you'll go through several people before you get to someone who has the power to change your bill. It's a needlessly involved process, but it is an option in some cases. The original comment was regarding Google Fiber's effect on competitors. If you're in an area that can get their service, then you should be able to back up your threat. Either google fiber is faster and cheaper than what you have now, or it's not and what you have now is better.
      - dippyskoodlez 13y ago
        I'm in the one section of KC that Google has yet to actually proliferate (probably some shady dealings with TWC and the council, but alas... no proof). TWC still offers the same terrible rates in the adjacent areas regardless of Gfiber actually being present. I'm pretty sure they just wrote off KC as an experiment and not indicitive of actual market importance. Coworkers with Gfiber have recieved no resistance from abandoning their previous ISP. You would think the OP area of KC without Gfiber would be the one area trying to 'make nice' with people offering better service, discounts, and/or promises, but there is absolutely zero signs of 'competition' in the market.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >I can say first hand, that if you call your ISP and say "I'm switching to X service at $Y for Zmbps" you can get your bill reduced. Except if you're one of those millions that live in rural areas with only one ISP. Or if the major ISPs in your area are complicit in keeping prices up and enjoy a pre-arranged share of the market each.
    - hayksaakian 13y ago
      Right. Rural areas and complicit ISPs suck for internet service. My statement only makes sense if you would actually go through with the threat if they didn't reduce your bill
Theodores 13y ago
My ISP - Virgin in the UK - has a transparent proxy cache for streaming video sites. If I want to watch an episode of Breaking Bad then it is there, instant. However, that 1992 B-side tack with 200 views 'buffers' for a while. That probably is because it is not cached down the road or further upstream at some Akamai CDN. It probably has to come straight from the heart of the GooglePlex, Sergei's very own hard drive... Given that most people watch what they are told to watch, i.e. the same stuff as everyone else, and, since almost all of that can be cached by the ISP, why would they throttle? The final mile I pay for, I could buy the basic 'throttled to 5Mbs' service but they kindly let me pay for a sensible level of bandwidth. How is this throttling thing different in the USA?
- SwellJoe 13y ago
  "why would they throttle?" Because they want to slow the demise of their television business unit. Many of the telcos here in the states not only also offer cable television service, they also directly compete with Netflix (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/02/comcast-launches-streaming-service-.html http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/0...). If they can make Netflix slower than the Comcast online offering (and they can), then more users will often choose the Comcast offering, even if it is inferior in every other way...and, most nefariously, the consumer probably won't know why Netflix is "so slow" and Comcast streaming is so fast. In short, Telcos want the ability to kill their rivals, without having to provide a better product. They succeeded in doing so during the 90s on the broadband Internet front (there used to be thousands of independent ISPs in the US; they were killed by the telcos abusing their monopoly power, it's a story I've told here before, and so won't go into again).
  - Theodores 13y ago
    Thank you for that. The situation is different in the UK, at least with my ISP. They have teamed up with Netflix rather than throttled them. http://about.virginmedia.com/press-release/9410/virgin-media-lights-up-tv-screens-with-netflix-launch http://about.virginmedia.com/press-release/9410/virgin-media... In the UK cable TV took a lot longer to arrive than in the US. When it arrived it quickly merged into some monster debt vehicle that had to be refinanced somehow. Nobody really went for cable, it took on a new life with the Internet. This competes with ADSL copper from BT and various competitors. There is no local monopoly, if I go for Talk Talk instead of BT then the same wire to the door gets used. Sounds like we have a better market over here.
wpietri 13y ago
Yes. As a person who has been using small ISPs since forever, and who tries to encourage others to do the same, most people just don't have the background or the inclination to really understand this stuff. They just see that the first-year cost for a major telco is twice what the open alternative is and they're done. I'm lucky I live in the SF area, where there are enough hardcore nerds to support Sonic.net, a great independent ISP. But elsewhere? Not so much.

dippyskoodlez 13y ago

>Google Fiber, in markets where it's available, has led to competitors reducing prices and offering better service. However, there's no word of change regarding net neutrality. As a KC resident, TWC has not yet reduced my internet costs or increased speeds.

hayksaakian 13y ago
I'll say my only knowledge of this was anecdotal (from others) I can say first hand, that if you call your ISP and say "I'm switching to X service at $Y for Zmbps" you can get your bill reduced.
- dippyskoodlez 13y ago
  The only other option is U-verse which is more expensive for the same speed or they don't even offer the same speed. Calling the ISP and threatening them only works if you can find someone with the power to do so(and hope they don't note your account for trying it again, later..), and assumes they hold true to their word on your next bill. I was primarily refuting your "causes isps to lower their prices" because Google fiber has done NOTHING for TWC's marketing. It's still the same terrible prices.
  - hayksaakian 13y ago
    (this is getting a little off topic) The way customer service works (again in my experience) is that you'll go through several people before you get to someone who has the power to change your bill. It's a needlessly involved process, but it is an option in some cases. The original comment was regarding Google Fiber's effect on competitors. If you're in an area that can get their service, then you should be able to back up your threat. Either google fiber is faster and cheaper than what you have now, or it's not and what you have now is better.
    - dippyskoodlez 13y ago
      I'm in the one section of KC that Google has yet to actually proliferate (probably some shady dealings with TWC and the council, but alas... no proof). TWC still offers the same terrible rates in the adjacent areas regardless of Gfiber actually being present. I'm pretty sure they just wrote off KC as an experiment and not indicitive of actual market importance. Coworkers with Gfiber have recieved no resistance from abandoning their previous ISP. You would think the OP area of KC without Gfiber would be the one area trying to 'make nice' with people offering better service, discounts, and/or promises, but there is absolutely zero signs of 'competition' in the market.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I can say first hand, that if you call your ISP and say "I'm switching to X service at $Y for Zmbps" you can get your bill reduced. Except if you're one of those millions that live in rural areas with only one ISP. Or if the major ISPs in your area are complicit in keeping prices up and enjoy a pre-arranged share of the market each.
  - hayksaakian 13y ago
    Right. Rural areas and complicit ISPs suck for internet service. My statement only makes sense if you would actually go through with the threat if they didn't reduce your bill

Theodores 13y ago

My ISP - Virgin in the UK - has a transparent proxy cache for streaming video sites. If I want to watch an episode of Breaking Bad then it is there, instant. However, that 1992 B-side tack with 200 views 'buffers' for a while. That probably is because it is not cached down the road or further upstream at some Akamai CDN. It probably has to come straight from the heart of the GooglePlex, Sergei's very own hard drive... Given that most people watch what they are told to watch, i.e. the same stuff as everyone else, and, since almost all of that can be cached by the ISP, why would they throttle? The final mile I pay for, I could buy the basic 'throttled to 5Mbs' service but they kindly let me pay for a sensible level of bandwidth. How is this throttling thing different in the USA?

SwellJoe 13y ago
"why would they throttle?" Because they want to slow the demise of their television business unit. Many of the telcos here in the states not only also offer cable television service, they also directly compete with Netflix (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/02/comcast-launches-streaming-service-.html http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/0...). If they can make Netflix slower than the Comcast online offering (and they can), then more users will often choose the Comcast offering, even if it is inferior in every other way...and, most nefariously, the consumer probably won't know why Netflix is "so slow" and Comcast streaming is so fast. In short, Telcos want the ability to kill their rivals, without having to provide a better product. They succeeded in doing so during the 90s on the broadband Internet front (there used to be thousands of independent ISPs in the US; they were killed by the telcos abusing their monopoly power, it's a story I've told here before, and so won't go into again).
- Theodores 13y ago
  Thank you for that. The situation is different in the UK, at least with my ISP. They have teamed up with Netflix rather than throttled them. http://about.virginmedia.com/press-release/9410/virgin-media-lights-up-tv-screens-with-netflix-launch http://about.virginmedia.com/press-release/9410/virgin-media... In the UK cable TV took a lot longer to arrive than in the US. When it arrived it quickly merged into some monster debt vehicle that had to be refinanced somehow. Nobody really went for cable, it took on a new life with the Internet. This competes with ADSL copper from BT and various competitors. There is no local monopoly, if I go for Talk Talk instead of BT then the same wire to the door gets used. Sounds like we have a better market over here.

wpietri 13y ago

Yes. As a person who has been using small ISPs since forever, and who tries to encourage others to do the same, most people just don't have the background or the inclination to really understand this stuff. They just see that the first-year cost for a major telco is twice what the open alternative is and they're done. I'm lucky I live in the SF area, where there are enough hardcore nerds to support Sonic.net, a great independent ISP. But elsewhere? Not so much.