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> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in

by ceol 13y ago

> A women cannot be driven out of coding by anyone other than herself. What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say. The sheer obliviousness of your privilege in this regard is staggering. It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol and, when they finally give up and leave — which is completely normal and something any normal person, including yourself, would do — say that it was all on them. You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry. It's putting the onus, and the blame, on the victim. That's awful.

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
You're conflating coding with the culture behind it. And even the culture isn't uniform, it's divided into many different subcultures. For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Even if you do use your real name and explicitly denote your sex as female, you'll still survive. You certainly aren't immune from trolling. No one is. But frankly most cases of "harassment and vitriol" I've read about (on the Geek Feminism Wiki, for instance) tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. This isn't victim blaming. It's being realistic.
- ceol 13y ago
  > For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. Except the community, which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource. > A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. "It's fine as long as you never say you're a woman!" Yeah, that's indicative of a friendly culture. >Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Aside from all your open source work never being attributable to yourself, sure. It's totally smarter. I'm sure no one ever contributes to open source projects with the intent of getting their name out. And your little aside to "contemporary feminists" (ironically in the same comment where you complain about generalizing cultures) just reveals your true intention in this discussion. > ...tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. Ah, here we go. The "you're just too sensitive" argument. As though not wanting to be hurt or harassed or bothered is a bad thing. As though the culture of trolling and adolescent behavior that permeates the programming community should remain the status quo, and anyone who calls for change just doesn't have thick enough skin. You sure do bring some unique and insightful contributions.
  - vezzy-fnord 13y ago
    The "you're just too sensitive" argument is a valid argument. I don't want to end up publicly shamed for jokes I make in private conversation.
    - ceol 13y ago
      The only way you're going to be shamed is if you really didn't make them in private conversation. Making them as you sit around a bunch of people in the middle of a conference, or in the middle of your office where everyone can hear you, or on your public twitter account is not a private conversation. Just because you directed it to someone does not make it private.
- jacalata 13y ago
  Have you heard of Kathy Sierra?
Sssnake 13y ago
>What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say Was that intended as a warning for the rest of your post? >It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol Of course it is. And since that does not happen any more frequently in tech than anywhere else, and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men, I have a hard time seeing the relevance. >You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry You may not even realize it, but your comment actually makes women less likely to participate in tech. When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny, women start feeling like they are blamed by all the normal people, even though they had nothing to do with it and are actually normal people themselves.
- ceol 13y ago
  > and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men You might as well be stating the world isn't round, or the sky isn't blue, or any other plainly obvious fact that has been proven countless times. Of course, you'll say sexism in the industry really doesn't exist, and ignore the thousands of women detailing their experiences[1] on the subject, so this isn't really for you. This is for the random reader who might not be as pigheaded and oblivious. > When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny Did "imaginary" suddenly change meanings? Because either it did, or your head is so far in the sand, you've been ignoring some of the most[2] recent[3] incidents.[4] If you haven't been paying attention to the programming and tech community, you really shouldn't be speaking about it, you know? It just makes you look like a jackass, and you wouldn't want that, right? [1]: http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-in-it-a-short-note-to-female-programmingit-students/ http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-i... [2]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052414/sexism-in-the-tech-industry-takes-center-stage http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052... [3]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinson_business_insider_cto_forced_out_for_sexist_racist_tweets.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinso... [4]: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-party-at-hacker-hideout http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-...
  - 13y ago
prodigal_erik 13y ago
> disgustingly ignorant[....] sheer obliviousness[...] privilege[....] awful. Do not expect shaming attempts to substitute for an argument here. Taking offense can't make you right. There's the industry and then there's the calling. If they share my obsession, where is their mountain of hobby projects for getting it out of their system when their day jobs do not?
rokhayakebe 13y ago
Ceol. I am Black. I am African. I live in Orange County (3% Black - At best). I am 32. I started to learn how to code at 28. I am still not comfortable walking in a room where everybody is White. I feel like a fraud sometimes, when I tell people I know how to code (in PHP). None of the above stopped me from slinging that code for several hours today. I understand what being a minority is, but quite frankly most of the time that shit is in our head. If you don't care, then no one will. Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game. I am writing code for a product for women (Hint: Alexander Wang, diane von furstenberg, Tory Burch, Marc Jacobs kinda stuff). Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back. It's hard, I get it, but what other choice do we have but roll up our sleeves and make our own mark and tell them "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in." But I'll admit, I am very naive, and that has cost me greatly. At any rate, apologies.
- ceol 13y ago
  Being black is certainly not the same as being a woman, and just because you didn't experience enough discrimination to push you away doesn't mean others don't. If anything, that feeling of being uncomfortable should make you more sympathetic, but instead, you're stuck in this bootstraps mentality that anyone who couldn't follow through just didn't apply themselves enough or something. > Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game. Err, yeah it does. That's exactly what it means. If someone has an advantage over you, you are at a disadvantage. That's what the word "disadvantage" means. > Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back. No one is saying you should. That actually has nothing to do with this. No one is asking for work to be segregated; in fact, they're asking for the exact opposite. > "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in." Why not both? Why not, "Stop treating me like shit and count mine." This isn't either-or.
  - rokhayakebe 13y ago
    You know, Ceol, maybe you are right.
- 13y ago

by ceol 13y ago

vezzy-fnord 13y ago

You're conflating coding with the culture behind it. And even the culture isn't uniform, it's divided into many different subcultures. For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Even if you do use your real name and explicitly denote your sex as female, you'll still survive. You certainly aren't immune from trolling. No one is. But frankly most cases of "harassment and vitriol" I've read about (on the Geek Feminism Wiki, for instance) tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. This isn't victim blaming. It's being realistic.

ceol 13y ago
> For all intents and purposes, there's nothing stopping a woman from learning how to program, contribute to open source and engage in community. Except the community, which is generally hostile towards women. Sure, someone can learn how to program on their own without ever interacting with the programming community, but that means shutting them off from a huge and helpful resource. > A lot of people, male and female alike, operate under a pseudonym. "It's fine as long as you never say you're a woman!" Yeah, that's indicative of a friendly culture. >Unless you're a celebrity, it's generally smarter for plenty of reasons, including risk management (something contemporary feminists don't seem to comprehend) and OPSEC. Aside from all your open source work never being attributable to yourself, sure. It's totally smarter. I'm sure no one ever contributes to open source projects with the intent of getting their name out. And your little aside to "contemporary feminists" (ironically in the same comment where you complain about generalizing cultures) just reveals your true intention in this discussion. > ...tend to be mostly about offended sensibilities. Ah, here we go. The "you're just too sensitive" argument. As though not wanting to be hurt or harassed or bothered is a bad thing. As though the culture of trolling and adolescent behavior that permeates the programming community should remain the status quo, and anyone who calls for change just doesn't have thick enough skin. You sure do bring some unique and insightful contributions.
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  The "you're just too sensitive" argument is a valid argument. I don't want to end up publicly shamed for jokes I make in private conversation.
  - ceol 13y ago
    The only way you're going to be shamed is if you really didn't make them in private conversation. Making them as you sit around a bunch of people in the middle of a conference, or in the middle of your office where everyone can hear you, or on your public twitter account is not a private conversation. Just because you directed it to someone does not make it private.
jacalata 13y ago
Have you heard of Kathy Sierra?

Sssnake 13y ago

>What a disgustingly ignorant thing to say Was that intended as a warning for the rest of your post? >It's ridiculous to expect someone to put up with harassment and vitriol Of course it is. And since that does not happen any more frequently in tech than anywhere else, and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men, I have a hard time seeing the relevance. >You may not even realize it, but your comment actually excuses all of the sexism and misogyny in the industry You may not even realize it, but your comment actually makes women less likely to participate in tech. When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny, women start feeling like they are blamed by all the normal people, even though they had nothing to do with it and are actually normal people themselves.

ceol 13y ago
> and does not happen any more frequently to women than to men You might as well be stating the world isn't round, or the sky isn't blue, or any other plainly obvious fact that has been proven countless times. Of course, you'll say sexism in the industry really doesn't exist, and ignore the thousands of women detailing their experiences[1] on the subject, so this isn't really for you. This is for the random reader who might not be as pigheaded and oblivious. > When people constantly make a huge fuss about imaginary misogyny Did "imaginary" suddenly change meanings? Because either it did, or your head is so far in the sand, you've been ignoring some of the most[2] recent[3] incidents.[4] If you haven't been paying attention to the programming and tech community, you really shouldn't be speaking about it, you know? It just makes you look like a jackass, and you wouldn't want that, right? [1]: http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-in-it-a-short-note-to-female-programmingit-students/ http://www.chicagonow.com/wild-side-chicago/2013/09/sexism-i... [2]: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052414/sexism-in-the-tech-industry-takes-center-stage http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/11/221052... [3]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinson_business_insider_cto_forced_out_for_sexist_racist_tweets.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/09/10/pax_dickinso... [4]: http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-party-at-hacker-hideout http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/3895-ignant-halloween-...
- 13y ago

prodigal_erik 13y ago

> disgustingly ignorant[....] sheer obliviousness[...] privilege[....] awful. Do not expect shaming attempts to substitute for an argument here. Taking offense can't make you right. There's the industry and then there's the calling. If they share my obsession, where is their mountain of hobby projects for getting it out of their system when their day jobs do not?

rokhayakebe 13y ago

Ceol. I am Black. I am African. I live in Orange County (3% Black - At best). I am 32. I started to learn how to code at 28. I am still not comfortable walking in a room where everybody is White. I feel like a fraud sometimes, when I tell people I know how to code (in PHP). None of the above stopped me from slinging that code for several hours today. I understand what being a minority is, but quite frankly most of the time that shit is in our head. If you don't care, then no one will. Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game. I am writing code for a product for women (Hint: Alexander Wang, diane von furstenberg, Tory Burch, Marc Jacobs kinda stuff). Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back. It's hard, I get it, but what other choice do we have but roll up our sleeves and make our own mark and tell them "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in." But I'll admit, I am very naive, and that has cost me greatly. At any rate, apologies.

ceol 13y ago
Being black is certainly not the same as being a woman, and just because you didn't experience enough discrimination to push you away doesn't mean others don't. If anything, that feeling of being uncomfortable should make you more sympathetic, but instead, you're stuck in this bootstraps mentality that anyone who couldn't follow through just didn't apply themselves enough or something. > Somebody having an advantage does not mean you have a disadvantage, this is not a zero sum game. Err, yeah it does. That's exactly what it means. If someone has an advantage over you, you are at a disadvantage. That's what the word "disadvantage" means. > Just because women knows these brands more than I (in general) does not mean I should sit back. No one is saying you should. That actually has nothing to do with this. No one is asking for work to be segregated; in fact, they're asking for the exact opposite. > "You see, mine count too," instead of "Make it easy for me to get in." Why not both? Why not, "Stop treating me like shit and count mine." This isn't either-or.
- rokhayakebe 13y ago
  You know, Ceol, maybe you are right.
13y ago