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It is interesting that whenever this subject is brought up, someone will eventually introduce the subject of guilt. Can you articulate why you responded in this
by lkrubner 13y ago
It is interesting that whenever this subject is brought up, someone will eventually introduce the subject of guilt. Can you articulate why you responded in this way? Do you feel that you have been accused of something? What exactly would the metaphorical equivalent of being a "witch" mean in this context?
I'll point out that we could have a conversation about diversity in hiring without ever introducing the subject of guilt.
This is a bit off-topic but I am fascinated about the exact reasons why some people react to conversations as if they have been accused of something. I think you might want to consider that nothing is useful is gained if you introduce the concept of "guilt" into a conversation where it is not needed.
I'll offer an example that has already been discussed on hundreds of blogs. You may recall in 2007 that John Kenzer interviewed Alex Payne? (I am sorry that the interview seems to be offline: http://www.radicalbehavior.com/5-question-interview-with-twitter-developer-alex-payne/ http://www.radicalbehavior.com/5-question-interview-with-twi... but it is in the Internet Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20070416091128/http://www.radicalbehavior.com/5-question-interview-with-twitter-developer-alex-payne http://web.archive.org/web/20070416091128/http://www.radical...) and Alex Payne offered some common sense observations about the difficulty of scaling Rails:
"Running on Rails has forced us to deal with scaling issues ... far sooner than I think we would on another framework. Once you hit a certain threshold of traffic, either you need to strip out all the costly neat stuff that Rails does for you ... or move the slow parts of your application out of Rails, or both."
You may recall that David Heinemeier Hansson's response was overheated and irrational. He said that Alex Payne was blaming Rails for all of the problems at Twitter. But Payne had never blamed Rails for anything, he merely talked about how they were struggling to make it scale.
(I am sorry to say that David's response appears to be offline now: http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/arc/000608.html http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/arc/000608.html , and the Internet Archive doesn't have it: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://david.heinemeierhansson.com/arc/000608.html http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://david.heinemeierhansson..... As a side note, let us all mourn how many important conversations get erased off the web.)
Many smart commentators pointed out that there was no need for David Heinemeier Hansson to introduce the concept of blame into that conversation. Alex Payne's words could have simply been taken as a constructive starting point for a larger conversation about how to scale Rails. But for some reason Hansson felt the need to frame the conversation in terms of accusations and guilt.
The same is true about this conversation, and your reaction. We can have a constructive conversation about increasing diversity in hiring without ever introducing the concept of guilt.
And yet, every time this subject comes up, someone feels the need to frame the whole thing in terms of accusations and guilt. The level of defensiveness on display is remarkable.
- firebones 13y agoRegarding great conversations being lost to the ages: a great idea for a service is an instant record button that preserves these things, regardless of source. Think pastebin + storify combined. The internet needs an instant record button.
- Goladus 13y ago> I'll point out that we could have a conversation about diversity in hiring without ever introducing the subject of guilt. The concept of blame was implied with the comment (paraphrased) startup culture is bad for women. That is blaming language, even though the victim was general and the guilt lies with a vague notion of 'culture'. If you want to avoid discussions of blame it helps to avoid judgmental language. "$VAGUE_CULTURE is $NEGATIVE_WORD [for $VICTIMS]" Where $NEGATIVE_WORD is something like 'bad' or 'problematic' and $VAGUE_CULTURE is some poorly specified concept that everyone is just supposed to get. It's nice when people don't jump to conclusions and talk about guilt and blame when it hasn't been made 100% explicit, on the other hand it's also nice when ideas are followed through to logical conclusions rather than left hanging for others take personally.
- dragonwriter 13y ago"Startup culture is bad for women" doesn't imply anything about blame, except maybe blame for failure to change now that that harm is observable. The existence of a harm doesn't imply that it was foreseeable in advance such that there is any moral culpability attached to it.
- Goladus 13y agoYes it does, because everyone participates in culture and culture is an ongoing thing. Or rather: it can be interpreted that way quite easily so don't make a statement like that and then blame people for talking about guilt. If you don't want people talking about guilt then avoid judgmental language ("bad" in this case, "harm" in yours) until it's very clear that a judgment is necessary. Having an arm amputated in a car accident is "harm", it's "bad". Is not being hired for a position really "harm?" Maybe it is, but unlike bodily injury such a determination is not so trivial to make.