7 ms·

Only if you define dictatorship as someone the US doesn't like and democracy as someone the US likes. There's no evidence that the government of north vietnam

Only if you define dictatorship as someone the US doesn't like and democracy as someone the US likes. There's no evidence that the government of north vietnam was worse than the organized crime cartel the US backed in the south (that had monks immolating themselves in the streets in protest against them). The US also backed Saddam Hussein against Iran, overthrew a left-wing but democratically elected government in Chile and replaced it with a brutal dictatorship. Castro, for that matter, was no worse than they guys he overthrew. The US repeatedly helped quash popular uprisings in aouth america to help out corporate interests. The US was vetoing sanctions against South Africa as late as 1988. Oh, and check out our awesome middle eastern ally Saudi Arabia. Learn some freaking history.

berntb 13y ago
Sigh... The subject was war not realpolitik games of common interests, which all countries play (and lie about). Most of those games also went away with the cold war. An irrelevant question about your claims: I don't know about Cuba's number of political prisoners, executions at revolution time, control of information, police state mentality. It might be less bad than the previous junta, but it is worst in the Americas now since the other unpleasant juntas disappeared... Afaik, the south Vietnam regime was horribly corrupt but can it really be worse than a communist place?! (Is that ideology? Do you have references?)
Tloewald 13y ago
@bertb Communism isn't worse than anything no matter how bad. It's hard to determine how bad some of the less nasty communist regimes such as Cuba and Vietnam would have been without massive economic sanctions from the US. (Both Cuba and Vietnam wanted to be US allies.) There are several cases among my examples of the US taking action against real democracies. Some references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_Southeast_Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_South... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état
- berntb 13y ago
  The subject was war. You started talking about your USA hatred. I asked for examples after the cold war (stupid of me to feed the trolls). You don't have anything relevant here either, so you list cases that are 40+ years old... This is a common pattern -- you can excuse anything (including burning food on the stove) with that a bad dictator had common interests with USA 50+ years ago... It is seriously funny when left wingers blame that all communist countries are dictators on USA. As I noted already, the non-communist dictators in that part of the world are gone since a long time. So Batiste would almost certainly be gone too. If Cuba implemented human rights, left governments in West Europe would take care of them. >>Communism isn't worse than anything no matter how bad. Oh my, I hope you are trolling. I've seen this before. If I e.g. mention millions of dead repeatedly, you will do a "no true scotsman" variant. Or some more strange logic. I know the QED anyway, all the dead are USAs fault... Enough.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    I see you've inferred I am a "left winger" full of "USA hatred" and a "troll". You've also skillfully defeated arguments I have not made (e.g. blaming millions of deaths or lack of democracy in communist countries on the US). And having done this you've declared "enough". Well played. Incidentally, I love the US and happen to live here. I simply wish the US would stop making really foolish decisions that waste blood and treasure on idiotic adventures which harm its standing in the world. I certainly don't think that any other power, either historical (e.g. the USSR) or speculative (e.g. China or India) is likely to do a better job, or be any "nicer" than the US has been thus far. But we can always do better, and the way to do better is to recognize past mistakes.
    - berntb 13y ago
      You troll, then insinuate I troll. Classic trick to blame others for what you do yourself -- someone browsing will just see two people calling each others names. You wrote this weird garbage: >>Communism isn't worse than anything no matter how bad. That is typical left wing dishonesty, motivated with some Western country (usually USA) being dependent on and cooperating with an unpleasant dictator that is opressive and/or did mass murders. If you have some other way of explaining that (drugs?), please do. >>You've also skillfully defeated arguments I have not made (e.g. blaming millions of deaths or lack of democracy in communist countries on the US). See previous paragraphs. You also wrote this: >> It's hard to determine how bad some of the less nasty communist regimes such as Cuba and Vietnam would have been without massive economic sanctions from the US. I can only read that as: "These enslaving juntas would have implemented human rights if it weren't for USA". Stupid. Also see the debate history: You changed the subject from war to realpoilitik complaints (which all countries do and lie about). It was stupid of me to comment on that and asking for examples post Cold War (which you didn't acknowledge you lack). Then you got weird (see above). But ok, you might just lack a clue and not be a troll.

berntb 13y ago

Sigh... The subject was war not realpolitik games of common interests, which all countries play (and lie about). Most of those games also went away with the cold war. An irrelevant question about your claims: I don't know about Cuba's number of political prisoners, executions at revolution time, control of information, police state mentality. It might be less bad than the previous junta, but it is worst in the Americas now since the other unpleasant juntas disappeared... Afaik, the south Vietnam regime was horribly corrupt but can it really be worse than a communist place?! (Is that ideology? Do you have references?)

Tloewald 13y ago

@bertb Communism isn't worse than anything no matter how bad. It's hard to determine how bad some of the less nasty communist regimes such as Cuba and Vietnam would have been without massive economic sanctions from the US. (Both Cuba and Vietnam wanted to be US allies.) There are several cases among my examples of the US taking action against real democracies. Some references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_Southeast_Asia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Politics_of_Heroin_in_South... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'état http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

berntb 13y ago
The subject was war. You started talking about your USA hatred. I asked for examples after the cold war (stupid of me to feed the trolls). You don't have anything relevant here either, so you list cases that are 40+ years old... This is a common pattern -- you can excuse anything (including burning food on the stove) with that a bad dictator had common interests with USA 50+ years ago... It is seriously funny when left wingers blame that all communist countries are dictators on USA. As I noted already, the non-communist dictators in that part of the world are gone since a long time. So Batiste would almost certainly be gone too. If Cuba implemented human rights, left governments in West Europe would take care of them. >>Communism isn't worse than anything no matter how bad. Oh my, I hope you are trolling. I've seen this before. If I e.g. mention millions of dead repeatedly, you will do a "no true scotsman" variant. Or some more strange logic. I know the QED anyway, all the dead are USAs fault... Enough.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  I see you've inferred I am a "left winger" full of "USA hatred" and a "troll". You've also skillfully defeated arguments I have not made (e.g. blaming millions of deaths or lack of democracy in communist countries on the US). And having done this you've declared "enough". Well played. Incidentally, I love the US and happen to live here. I simply wish the US would stop making really foolish decisions that waste blood and treasure on idiotic adventures which harm its standing in the world. I certainly don't think that any other power, either historical (e.g. the USSR) or speculative (e.g. China or India) is likely to do a better job, or be any "nicer" than the US has been thus far. But we can always do better, and the way to do better is to recognize past mistakes.
  - berntb 13y ago
    You troll, then insinuate I troll. Classic trick to blame others for what you do yourself -- someone browsing will just see two people calling each others names. You wrote this weird garbage: >>Communism isn't worse than anything no matter how bad. That is typical left wing dishonesty, motivated with some Western country (usually USA) being dependent on and cooperating with an unpleasant dictator that is opressive and/or did mass murders. If you have some other way of explaining that (drugs?), please do. >>You've also skillfully defeated arguments I have not made (e.g. blaming millions of deaths or lack of democracy in communist countries on the US). See previous paragraphs. You also wrote this: >> It's hard to determine how bad some of the less nasty communist regimes such as Cuba and Vietnam would have been without massive economic sanctions from the US. I can only read that as: "These enslaving juntas would have implemented human rights if it weren't for USA". Stupid. Also see the debate history: You changed the subject from war to realpoilitik complaints (which all countries do and lie about). It was stupid of me to comment on that and asking for examples post Cold War (which you didn't acknowledge you lack). Then you got weird (see above). But ok, you might just lack a clue and not be a troll.